Podcast Ep 6: How Andrew transferred his skills, knowledge and expertise for Career Success.

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Grant Williams:

Let’s Create Your Career Podcast. I’m Grant Williams your cohost. Your expert host is Marina Pitisano.

Marina Pitisano:

Well done, Grant.

Grant Williams:

I’ve got that right.

Marina Pitisano:

Thank god. Yes.

Grant Williams:

Marina, you’re an expert career coach.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, and would you like me to say something about that?

Grant Williams:

Yeah. I would.

Marina Pitisano:

Well, yeah, so I’m really excited today because I have another guest that’s going to talk about his career journey, which is Andrew. And yes, what it’s all about is very much about what are the journeys of some of these people that are out there job hunting, looking for jobs, really struggling with the marketplace? And it’s really nice to listen to stories of everyday people that have gone through that journey and now have had some really great success. And what made them successful? What was the journey like? What’s happened in the end? And what were the things that made it … How did we arrive at that point? And hopefully we can share that today, around what is it that as a career coach I help individuals with? However, what is it that they need help with that we can then arrive at that journey or that destination.

Grant Williams:

Hi, Andrew, thanks a lot for coming in.

Andrew:

Hi Grant. Thank you. thanks for having me.

Grant Williams:

And I know you said you felt a bit intimidated because it was a bit like a radio studio. But it’s not, it’s just a room with a table and a couple of microphones. And we’re just having a chinwag. Can I ask you what led to your needing to make a change in career? What was the situation?

Andrew:

Yeah, so I’d worked for NAB for the best part of 30 years. And I’d gone back to them in a full-time capacity. I wasn’t entirely happy in my role. And that was pretty much a feeling that I’d had from day one when I’d rejoined. And I’d sort of managed to get some traction in my role with working on some of my technology sort of experiences and skillsets. And working on projects within that sort of environment to basically make a contribution to the team. But there was always doubts in my mind as to whether I’d done the right thing, mainly because I felt like I’d worked in banking and finance for such a long period of time. And I sort of always wondered what else was out there.

Andrew:

So, there was a number of events that sort of led me to a particular point. And I was virtually looking for roles outside NAB at the time. So, I thought the way to actually try and improve my chances was to get onto LinkedIn and start updating my profile and just basically exploring the opportunities that sort of do present through there.

Grant Williams:

So, sorry to interrupt.

Andrew:

No, you’re right.

Grant Williams:

But you said your return to NAB. Does that mean you have had two stints at NAB? And was your initial entry into banking the school, university, do economics or accounting or finance and then straight into banking? Or did you have a different pathway?

Andrew:

A completely different pathway. So, you’re right. I mean, I was at school and I was in the country, a little country lad. And my dad had moved up to Western Victoria and we were living in Maryborough. And mom had wanted to move up to where dad was. So, she basically went into the local NAB branch at Maryborough and asked them, “Do you have any jobs going?” And luckily enough at the time, they had a part-time role. So, I went for an interview after school one day. And I was in Year 11 at the time, and managed to get the role with NAB. And that sort of basically kick-started everything. So, I was basically straight out of high school, straight into the bank. And I’d worked for them for a few years and basically had to move to the other side of the country when I was about 18. And I left NAB at that time.

Andrew:

But when I was over there, I was working in various sort of casual roles in hotels and that sort of thing, but thought I just needed something a little bit more structured and permanent. So, I went to NAB and had a conversation over a coffee and ended up working for them. And that stint basically took me through to the 27 years. and part of that time was also with IBM as part of a transitional retrenchment. So, I ended up … It was effectively counted as NAB service, but it was also working for IBM as part of a service provider agreement with NAB.

Grant Williams:

Now, when you went to the other side of the country, so I’m presuming you’re talking about Western Australia.

Andrew:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

So, at that time, going back to NAB, that would have made your parents happy because going into a bank was seen as the safe, reliable option for employment, wasn’t it?

Andrew:

Absolutely. Yeah. In those days, people used to actually like bankers, I think.

Grant Williams:

And Marina, how things have changed.

Marina Pitisano:

Well, it’s a shame, it has definitely changed, because again, what you’re hearing is that it is that start in an organization and have a lifetime in an organization. We’re talking about Andrew having 27 years. You’re not going to have that in today’s society. People are not going to be joining one organization and staying for 30 years. They’re eventually going to have to move around. So, you know, we have a situation here where someone’s been there a long time and is now looking outside. But in today’s world, you can go into an organization and be lucky to get a couple of years up your sleeve before you’re asked to … Before you start thinking about, where do I go? What do I do?

Grant Williams:

The constant need for reskilling and upskilling is a big factor in lots of industries. Is that something that you found limited your chance of any further progression or had an effect on just your personal psyche about wanting to have a change?

Andrew:

Look, I think it was a little bit of both. So, working in technology, you get the opportunity to work across different teams, different roles. And you get exposure to maybe different programming languages or different sort of disciplines within a technology world. So, I sort of had that opportunity to move around and actually work across different roles and build different skillsets. And things that sort of helped develop just my technical experience, I guess. But the thing, what I found was, going back to NAB, I was doing a lot of similar things to what I’d been doing for 27 years, but in a business side of the … or on the business side of the world.

Andrew:

And it just wasn’t sort of sitting comfortably with me at the time and I wasn’t happy. And that’s when I … We were talking about LinkedIn before. I did start to pick up on some of … or a lot of Marina’s posts on LinkedIn about how career coaching can actually help you. And I thought, you know what? I’d read a lot about other people working with career coaches to help them achieve their goals or whatever changes that they wanted to apply. So, I thought, “You know what? Let’s reach out and have a chat.” Basically, we sort of worked together from that point.

Grant Williams:

So, that point was where you were in a transition program, you mentioned, where you were working for IBM, but under the auspices of-

Andrew:

Sorry, no, that was further back.

Grant Williams:

Way back.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

So, you’re back working full on in NAB.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And you’ve just decided it’s time for a change.

Andrew:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I’d been wearing pretty much the same colored badge for a long time. So, you know, some of the people I got along really well with. But there were different factors in making me think that I needed to actually explore other opportunities or other industries. And that’s when I reached out to Marina because I thought, “You know what? If I stay put, basically going to feel that way for the next 10-20 years or whatever. So, what have I got to lose?” So, when I reached out to Marina, we had a chat and hit it off pretty well. And actually, more than pretty well. We get along really well. And I felt instantly comfortable working with Marina and sort of felt like I’d made the right decision at that point.

Grant Williams:

So, Marina, what was the action plan?

Marina Pitisano:

Just before I answer that, I just want to pick up a few things Andrew said, and it’s something you asked about upskilling. It’s interesting in today’s market, I think there’s something about today’s market which is really necessary is that people really need to look at upskilling themselves because we’ve got future of work coming in.

Grant Williams:

And can I just sort of define upskilling the way I used it?

Marina Pitisano:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Because a lot of people think, “It means that if I’ve got a degree, I’ve then got to get a Masters,” and whatnot. And I’m not using the term in that way. What I’m thinking is if you can’t manage your own social media profile and your own social media presence, and you’re looking to be anything but an entry level employee now, well then you’d better go and learn about what the social media platforms are and how to use them and how not to get into trouble on them, because they’re the kinds of things now that everybody expects you to know how to do. Can you write in a way that can make sense on a business website? If you can’t, you’ve got to go and learn it because that’s what you need to have. And that’s what I mean by upskilling. You don’t need to be-

Marina Pitisano:

No, and I’m on the same wavelength as you. Upskilling doesn’t mean that you have to do from a Bachelor to an Honors to a Post Graduate, to a Masters, you don’t need to go through that. There are times where maybe you might need to, depending if you’re level … If you’re a senior role.

Grant Williams:

And that’s occupation specific, really.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, it depends on the roles that you’re in. But Andrew belongs to technology, you know? What’s happening in the market at the moment around technology is Agile learning, is machine learning, is all this … It’s an economy. So, you need to understand all that because it’s going to impact you. So, you need to go and learn. There’s short courses. People are moving in … People might want to move into project management, so they actually need to go and do a project management course. So, we’re not talking … We’re talking about actually specific skills that you might need to improve on and go back and upskill that. And that’s really important because you really need to look at in the next 5-10 years, the jobs that we have today might not exist. And I mean, Andrew works in that whole economy where what systems he’s using today might not exist in five or 10 years’ time, which means that you need to upskill today for those jobs of the future.

Marina Pitisano:

So, what Andrew was talking about and what you mentioned is really critical. So, that’s one thing that … That is one area we touch on when we are working with our clients or when I work with my client is, do we need to upskill? And recently, we had a situation where one of my clients is really wanting to move into business process improvement. So, we’re looking at Six Sigma, we’re looking at Lean, we’re looking at PMBOK, we’re looking at all these new Agile … All these new ways of managing projects that you’ll need to learn.

Marina Pitisano:

The other thing that was interesting about what Andrew just mentioned is that people can be in jobs for a long time but not be happy in them. And so, they decide for some reason to continue to stay in them. And I give Andrew a lot of credit. I mean, he could have just waited to get a payout, do you know what I mean? It’s 27 years. So, he could have waited and thought, “I’ll just die here until I get that payout.” He might have got a payout in the past. But you know, so I think people think that reaching out to a career coach is all about, “I might have to change my job,” or, “I might have to move out of my area.” But career coaching is more about, how are you enjoying your job? What are you doing currently? And is there an action plan that we can create that maybe might improve your skills or change your skills and prepare you for the future?

Marina Pitisano:

So, the action plan with Andrew, going back to your question, in his case, Andrew was really job searching. He really wanted to move out of NAB. He’s got specific skills, which I’ll let Andrew go through if you want to. He’s got specific skills and we were looking for the roles that had those skills. And it was more about what does the application look like when we were applying for these roles? Because they were quite technical, and he needed to have that knowledge. And the big thing, the action plan for Andrew was also about interviewing, you know? He hadn’t been to an interview for many, many years. And he was probably not aware of what the type of interviews were out there.

Marina Pitisano:

Andrew went through a panel interview, where there were three people, which we still start laughing. We laugh about it today. But it was a grilling interview. It was really … Like, it was nearly two hours. And we had to really prepare for that interview because he’s never been through that. At NAB, things work very differently at NAB. You’re lucky to have a conversation with a manager. If you’re part of the internal process, you go in for a quick chat with one of the managers or you ask a few questions. They have a history about you, they use that history. They add two and two and sometimes they get there. But not when you’re in the marketplace and you’re looking at large organizations in senior roles.

Marina Pitisano:

You need to be really fully prepared. So, it was how we’re going to apply. And my approach today with all my clients is that you need to have … You can’t have just one job strategy, you have to have a variety of strategies when you’re job hunting. Andrew mentioned LinkedIn applications, networking. So, there’s quite a few. And we actually outlined all of them and what we were going to do in each one.

Grant Williams:

Andrew, can I ask, drawing out on what Marina said about assessing your job skills? It’s a horrible term, but it’s that personal assessment you have to make about what can you do? What are you prepared to do? How much did that weigh on your decision to actually leave? And were you at the same time tossing up that, “Could get a payout, and it could be quite a lot,” or, “I’m not happy here at all. I’ve just got to go.”

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

Just-

Andrew:

Maybe, sorry, I’ll just perhaps … Can I correct that?

Grant Williams:

Sure.

Andrew:

So, I had the payout from IBM. So, we were in a pretty good position anyway. But I’d gone back to NAB and then was-

Grant Williams:

So, you had a long runway as they like to say now.

Andrew:

Absolutely, yeah, that’s right. Yeah, and some of our circumstances just sort of led me back to feeling that I actually had to work. Probably at the time, I felt like I wanted to take a little bit of time just to freshen up and explore what opportunities were out there. And circumstances sort of changed pretty quickly for us through family. And it sort of made me change my mindset, which hindsight’s a marvelous thing. I wish I hadn’t have.

Grant Williams:

How long ago was this, by the way?

Andrew:

This was probably … Well, I finished up with IBM in 2015.

Grant Williams:

Okay, so it’s recent history.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

I’m going to assume you’ve got a family.

Andrew:

Yep.

Grant Williams:

So, these decisions can’t be made just by you. There’s a whole swag of people that need to be considered. So, did you find any external pressure to stay in banking?

Andrew:

Probably not directly from wife and kids. My kids are a little bit older now. So, my son’s out of home and my daughter’s at uni now. So, she would have been … In 15, she would have been in Year 12 in 2015. So, I didn’t have that sort of expectation that we’ve got kids at school for the next 10 years sort of thing. So, I think the way I felt, I still would have made the same decisions, you know? It’s one of those things, we certainly talked a lot about it at home. And my wife was really supportive of me to make that change because she could see how it was affecting me at home. And so, I don’t think it was a hard decision to make.

Andrew:

And my kids, they don’t mind. As long as we’re happy and we try and just keep it sort of fairly relaxed at home and just make sure that we don’t bring our sort of work lives home in a negative way. And they were really supportive of me actually getting out and exploring new opportunities. And I think they were happy for me to go out and try going to a panel interview. And then I could talk to them about sort of some of the questions and the way that we handled those situations, because in the not too distant future they were, or they did, go and have an interview themselves.

Grant Williams:

So, you got the payout from leaving the corporate world.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And you’ve taken some time.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And the family’s onboard.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

What was your job or occupation or role that you really desired to get into at that stage?

Andrew:

Look, I think I was just willing to get out of banking in general. So, I was looking at various organizations. So, the technology skillsets that I have, I mean, a lot of those … Well, the main tool that I use is used across banks, telcos, insurance companies, government organizations. So, I felt like the searches were restricted within those towers.

Grant Williams:

And is that a customer management tool?

Andrew:

Well, it’s a data management and analysis tool.

Grant Williams:

Data management. Okay.

Andrew:

Yeah, so it’s very powerful in what it does. But it seems to be more broadly used in the larger organizations.

Grant Williams:

Marina, did you notice I was nodding like I knew what he was talking about?

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, and I was wondering, “You don’t know what he’s talking about.”

Grant Williams:

Hang on.

Andrew:

We’re using product placements here.

Grant Williams:

I thought about throwing in SQL as a term and seeing if that got a nod.

Marina Pitisano:

No, well-

Andrew:

It’s one of, yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

It’s one of. It’s one of.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

But, yeah. No, you’re good.

Andrew:

Can I use it?

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, I think you’re good.

Andrew:

It’s SAS.

Marina Pitisano:

It’s SAS.

Andrew:

SAS is the word. Yeah.

Grant Williams:

Software as a service.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah.

Andrew:

No, it’s actually statistical analysis system.

Grant Williams:

So, there’s two types of SAS?

Andrew:

Yeah, but SAS can sit on a software as a service platform. Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah.

Andrew:

So, you know, it’s really powerful in what it can do, but there’s many different elements to it.

Grant Williams:

What’s the competition like for that role that you wanted for yourself?

Andrew:

I think it’s highly competitive. And that was the challenge that I had. I felt like I had a reasonable skillset, quite a lot of experience that I could draw on. But how could I actually get that onto paper, for example, or into some sort of format that would actually make a recruiter look at my profile or my stuff and actually want to have a chat with me? So, that’s where-

Grant Williams:

So, how hard was it to whip him into shape?

Marina Pitisano:

No, no. Andrew was not hard to whip into shape at all. And it was interesting because I am sitting here thinking, a lot of people can generalize and say that men won’t reach out for help, you know? They always say that it’s more women that will reach out. And that’s why I really wanted Andrew to join us because you can hear that if he needed help or he wanted some advice, support, and guidance, he was quite happy to reach out. And I think people that generalize about men and women really need to stop doing that because men in the market today, if they need help, they will reach out and get it.

Grant Williams:

It’s something I seem to pick up about you, Andrew, is that you were in a good place when you wanted to make the change. It didn’t feel like you were tethered to that job, you didn’t have options, financial pressures were meaning you couldn’t leave. So, it’s a really different head space that Andrew would have been in, I’m assuming, than some of the other people that we’ve spoken to.

Marina Pitisano:

And that’s really interesting because, yes, Andrew was in a good space. But what was the confusing part was, if I want to transfer, move, or move into another industry, another role, I really don’t know how to … I don’t really know how to project myself and I really don’t know how to talk myself up. Andrew’s quite, and you can hear, Andrew’s quite a modest man, you know? Has amazing skills, quite technical, and is quite senior. However, it’s about, how do I deliver that message both on paper and both face to face in an interview? So, when you’re in a space of, it’s what I want to do, but I don’t know how to do it, I think that’s a really good combination, a good winning combination to be able to be curious about the market, search the market, and be able to find something.

Marina Pitisano:

The other individuals that we’ve had, they were in a different space. They’re finding it difficult. They need to get something different. And that’s a difficult place to work from because it comes from a desperation of, I can’t be here anymore. We still arrive at the same destination. But it’s just a lot more emotionally intense.

Grant Williams:

Yeah, a really different measure of internal pressure on the decisions you make.

Marina Pitisano:

Exactly. Exactly. However, it’s just managing those situations and those attitudes and how people … That emotional rollercoaster. It’s my role to be able to manage that carefully, depending on where they’re at.

Grant Williams:

So, let me ask each of you the same question. What had to be done?

Andrew:

You go.

Marina Pitisano:

You can go first, Andrew.

Andrew:

No.

Marina Pitisano:

I need to hear what you have to say.

Grant Williams:

Well, neither of them wants to answer.

Marina Pitisano:

No, I know what had to be done. But it’d be interesting to see what Andrew things what had to be done.

Grant Williams:

That’s why I asked it to the two of you.

Marina Pitisano:

I knew what needed to be done, but it’d be interesting what Andrew thinks.

Andrew:

Maybe one of us should go to the silent booth just to-

Marina Pitisano:

I’ll come up with something different if needs be.

Andrew:

But the thing I felt for me personally was that I had skills and experience. But as I was saying before, how do I present that in a written format to get me to a point where I can talk to someone? But then, when I talk to someone, how do I articulate that into a way that answers a question or … Most interviews are usually behavioral event type interviews. So, I think if you try and-

Grant Williams:

And by behavioral event interview, does that mean you’re given a situation and it’s, “How will you react to that situation?”

Andrew:

Yeah. Maybe a challenge that you’ve faced before or a task that you’ve done that’s met a goal or exceeded that expectation. And some of the actions that you might take to actually arrive at that end point. And what were the benefits of those actions? And how did that actually meet the actual requirement? So, that was the thing that … I mean, for me it was really powerful in the way that we worked together on developing those answers to tackle those sorts of questions. But also just in the way of structuring the answers so it came across as not being too scripted. I felt really scripted at the start. But then, being more of a conversational sort of answer. And that sort of … It gives you that opportunity to be able to also push questions back to the interviewer and get them to perhaps expand a little bit more on a situation or what they’re actually looking for.

Grant Williams:

Was it difficult from a personal standpoint to recognize all the runs you had on the board? Because what you’re being asked to do is tell someone how good you are, why you’re that good, and how being good has been good for other people or the company. And it’s … Did you have trouble recognizing the skills and the experience you already had?

Andrew:

Yeah, look, I do have trouble talking myself up. It’s just it sits in an uncomfortable place for me. I like to just be fairly quiet and try and be modest, I suppose. I mean, everyone’s got limitations and that sort of thing about what they can do. But you also do good things as well, so that’s what you have to try and draw out and … not sell a dream, but effectively sell yourself as a solution to the problems or the challenges or the requirements of what the recruiter or that person is actually looking for. And you’ve got to be a little bit better than everyone else, obviously, to get a role.

Grant Williams:

So, Marina, how difficult is it to present that positive track record with someone who is being quite modest? Because I’m thinking that anybody who has had an extended corporate career or business career and been in senior roles has a yellow brick road that they can talk about. How hard-

Marina Pitisano:

If they know the yellow brick road. So, I’ll just go back-

Grant Williams:

Yeah, did you have to help Andrew identify the yellow brick road?

Marina Pitisano:

The yellow brick road, yes.

Grant Williams:

That’s really what I’m getting to.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes. So, I’ll just go back to the question that you asked us both, which was, what did we both have to do? Andrew was quite transactional. He went through the transactions that we did. But what I had to do was really encourage or demonstrate or highlight for Andrew, what I needed to do was make him believe and make him understand that he was going to be the best person for the job. And that’s critical because yes, I can give you all the scenarios. Yes, we can go back and find the yellow brick road, look at all the achievements. But until he owned that and believed, “Wow, I did that and I own that. And I can talk about that in a way that is extremely confident. And I can walk into the interview and say, ‘Look, I have the solution to your problem. I am the best person for this job because of these reasons.'” That’s what I have to train my clients to do. And you know, I’m not expecting individuals to walk in and brag and be the [inaudible 00:29:02]. But be strong in themselves.

Marina Pitisano:

I mean, once Andrew grabbed what his yellow brick road looked like and what all the experience he had, and then he was able to talk about it in a way that was comfortable for him, he was himself in the room. He was able to tackle any question that came his way. And he was tested quite a few times in the interview. But because he had prepared, because he understood his achievements, because he owned them and he believed that that was a role that he could go for and that he could add a lot of value, then he was able to transform that interview into being accepted as the person that was going to win the role, versus missing out on the role. And that’s the hardest part of what we do is being able for someone to see I actually deserve it because I’ve got the runs on the board. And I can demonstrate to you what they are, and I can do the same for you.

Grant Williams:

I’m guessing when you went into that interview … And were there more than one? Let’s start with that.

Andrew:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Okay, okay. So, for the first one you went to that you obviously didn’t take up a role from, did you view that interview as a threat? And by the time you got to the one where you did take up a role, that you started to see it as an opportunity? Was there … Had Marina turned your brain around like that?

Andrew:

Yeah, look, I guess I’d had a couple of conversations leading up to when Marina and I started working together. And the preparations that I did weren’t anywhere near to the level of what Marina and I actually talked about and practiced and worked on together. So, I knew it wasn’t working the way I was doing it. But once we started to-

Grant Williams:

Do you want to cough up to what you were doing that didn’t work?

Andrew:

Well, I wasn’t preparing as well as I should have. So, I know my work history. I know what I’ve done. But the way I would present that information probably was, as Marina said, more transactional. So, I did A, B, and C. And this was the result. It doesn’t really articulate what benefit it was to the company or to the team or to other people. So, that was the thing that I had to change around I felt in that interview process. The way that we worked together, it helped me. If you go into a behavioral event interview in any case, whether it’s a one on one or a panel, the way that they ask the questions, you can’t remember thousands of questions and a particular answer for each of those questions.

Andrew:

So, we tackled it a little bit differently. And that was to focus on some of the achievements that I’d actually gotten over the years. And just sort of adapt that to a particular question when it was asked. And that’s sort of listening to the interviewer when they’re talking to you. Understanding, trying to draw out what you think they’re actually trying to ask you.

Grant Williams:

Where they’re going. Yeah.

Andrew:

And then, if you’re not sure, you can actually fire the question back and say, “Do you actually mean … Is this what you’re asking me?”

Grant Williams:

And that’s where the inner confidence comes in.

Andrew:

Yeah. And it becomes more conversational. So, that’s what really helped me, I think. And that was the sort of stuff that Marina and I really practiced a lot. And it gave me a lot of that confidence. But the first panel interview I went to, I walked out of it and I think I went to one of the little cafes on Lonsdale Street and spoke with Marina immediately. And I sort of said, “I felt like it went reasonably well. But there was a couple of questions that I felt like I could have answered better.”

Andrew:

So, in my own mind, I knew or I felt like I knew where I’d probably not quite got the message across as well as I could have. But then, fortune happened or I was a little bit fortunate to get a callback to say they’d had another role, so they wanted to interview me again. So, I went back and had another conversation with the team and with a different panel, of course.

Grant Williams:

Anyone the same on that panel?

Andrew:

No, sorry, just the HR person.

Marina Pitisano:

But you can hear how lovely Andrew is. He said, “I was just fortunate that I got the next one.” Not through all his hard work and all the hard sweat that he put in, “I was just fortunate I got into the next one.”

Grant Williams:

And also, I mean-

Marina Pitisano:

That was really lovely, Andrew. I really liked that, “I was just fortunate.” Just slaved his guts out, but, “I’m fortunate.”

Grant Williams:

That’s true.

Marina Pitisano:

Do you see what I mean?

Grant Williams:

That’s true.

Marina Pitisano:

You see?

Grant Williams:

I also want to lean on the confidence thing a bit because I was involved in panel selection for heads of department in university and stuff like that for a number of roles. And when you’re in that situation, you know? When you’re interviewing 10 people in a day and there’s a whole day set aside and it’s fully catered and everyone’s taking it all super seriously and we’ve got our checklist and our position descriptions, I was staggered that for roles where it’s several hundred thousand dollars in remuneration, how many people who were unsuitable were actually getting to interview. I’m thinking that when you’re in that situation, you’re interview number six or something, they’ve probably seen four where the line’s gone straight through them and gone, “No. No.”

Grant Williams:

So, if you’re able to walk through your own scorecard, paint the picture of your yellow brick road, you’re always in with a good chance. Am I right with that, Marina?

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, you’re right. Absolutely. I love this analogy of yellow brick road. If you know your yellow brick road and-

Grant Williams:

Everyone’s got … Everyone’s walked down a yellow brick road.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, but you have to-

Grant Williams:

Some people can’t look back and see it.

Marina Pitisano:

But you have to remember what the bricks were made of. You have to remember.

Grant Williams:

Some people just see-

Marina Pitisano:

And they don’t.

Grant Williams:

Some people just see that it’s a muddy horse track.

Marina Pitisano:

But do you know, Grant, that there are people that don’t have … Like, they’re in senior roles but they’ve not ever kept their resume up to date. So, if you went to speak to them and said, “What did you do in this year?” Like, even five years ago, they wouldn’t be able to tell you because they can’t remember. They’ve not prepared. They’ve not prepared their resume, they have not kept it up to date.

Grant Williams:

They’re too busy stealing ideas off their team and making their team feel miserable.

Marina Pitisano:

Not all of them. But some of them, maybe. Maybe.

Grant Williams:

But I think now, well, all employment life, I think now, if you’re not looking to change and be better, you’re going to be back working in a shop in Water Gardens or Chadstone or whatnot, because the people skills and the sort of reach out skills and the basic technology skills, everybody needs to have now, are not easy to collect if you don’t try and collect them.

Marina Pitisano:

Absolutely right. And people don’t. And people don’t even know, with what you’ve just expressed, which is what are the technical? What are the personal? What are the behavioral? What are the EQ skills? They don’t even know how to break … What are employability skills? They wouldn’t even know how to break that down because they’ve not spent any time on it. They’re just in the doing. And they need to be able to get out of the doing and start to reflect on what are their skills? And I just want to pick up on something that Andrew said, which was, he went through the interview, he came out. He thought through the questions and he realized there were certain questions that he might not have been as strong in or answered them as well. And I think that is the most critical part of working with a coach, you know? Because it’s understanding where you haven’t done so well. It’s being able to review-

Grant Williams:

On a self evaluation?

Marina Pitisano:

Self evaluate, review. But also be able to say, “Okay, why didn’t we do so well?” And what might have let yourself down? And then be able to look at how we can rebuild that for the next one. When you’re on your own and you’re in this sea of applications, applying, going in for interviews, not getting any feedback, you really are stuck on, well, I don’t know what to do more. I don’t know what to do better. I can self reflect and I can pick that up. But how do I actually do better? I don’t know what the solution is. And I think that’s why you need to work with someone. That’s why people have business coaches. That’s why people have gym instructors. That’s why people have naturopaths that help them with health issues, because you need someone of an expert to be able to sit with you and say, “Okay, let’s reflect on that. Why did you feel you didn’t do so well? And let’s look at what we now need to implement for the next time if you get confronted with that.” And we come up with another action plan on how to deal with that.

Grant Williams:

So, Andrew, how long was the process of deciding you wanted to leave and you got in touch with Marina some time after that, but deciding you wanted to leave, taking the action, and then securing the role you wanted and that you accepted? How long was that in time?

Andrew:

It was pretty quick, to be honest, Grant. I think, look, I was unhappy for quite some time in NAB. And there was a particular conversation that I’d had with someone. And I thought, “You know what? That’s actually the straw that broke the camel’s back.” So, I made that call at that particular time, okay, I’m going to get out, do something different. So, Marina and I, I think we’d already engaged and had a little bit of dialogue through at least LinkedIn. But pretty much from that point in time when we’d had that conversation at work, Marina and I started working together. But I think we were probably six weeks, I reckon.

Marina Pitisano:

Yep, it was a couple of months. It was about two months. Yeah. He was wonderful. He was a great one because-

Andrew:

It didn’t take long. I mean, but-

Marina Pitisano:

But I think for all … But for Andrew, he went to a role … We created the resume, we did the application. We sent it into … I mean, the company that he won the role with, they would have had about 50-100 applications. It was a senior role. He was the top two, top three.

Andrew:

Yeah, I was down to the last few. Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Yep, so he was interviewed. The first interview was top three. And then, the second interview, I think you were the only one that they were really working with. And if he got through that, then the job was his. So, that’s what we had to go through.

Grant Williams:

And was this the role where you didn’t get it and then they contacted you about another role?

Andrew:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Okay. So, if that had have been me, smug bastard that I am, having been contacted and called in, you know you’re number one or two or three. You’ve just got to know it because, geez, they’ve already read 500 resumes. They’ve sorted through. They’ve had a look at 100 closely. They’ve decided to interview 10 and then they’ve called me. I mean, good on you.

Andrew:

It’s a nice situation to be in.

Grant Williams:

Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew:

Yeah. As I said, I felt fortunate in that position or to be in that position. But you know, you still have to go through that process. And if you walk in and you’re too smug with your answers or something-

Grant Williams:

Well, you can’t be me. You can’t be a smug bastard.

Andrew:

No, exactly. Yeah, you’ve still got to present in the way that you would have, even if you were still in the pack, if that makes sense.

Grant Williams:

What I did want to ask you, knowing that extra information, did you approach that second panel of evaluation in a different frame of mind than the one immediately previous?

Andrew:

I think I was probably a little bit more comfortable and in a more relaxed mindset. You know, I still had worked through all the different scenarios, all the answers, that sort of thing. But because I had been through that experience before, walking into the next one, it made it a lot easier. And because they were relatively close together, I felt like I could be more conversational and natural in that environment. So, the dialogue was pretty relaxed. I mean, we still had our questions and that sort of thing. But we were getting some smiles around the table and had a little bit of interaction between the team, or between the panel. It seemed to just work quite well.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, the second interview is always very different to the first. So, the first interview is really, really … In most cases, be it a senior role, even a junior role, the first interview is quite grilling. I mean, they ask all … They could be direct questions, they could be technical questions, they can be behavioral event questions. It all depends who’s in the room. So, if there is a HR person in the room, you’ll know there’s behavioral. And we discussed that. So, anyone that goes for an interview has to know who’s in that room and actually should do some research on who’s going to interview you.

Grant Williams:

Can you ask before your interview who is going to interview you?

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, we always do.

Grant Williams:

Okay.

Marina Pitisano:

That is a thing that I always ask my clients to think about. Find out who’s … You must know who’s in the interview because then I am able to say … Because if there’s two financial controllers or two head of ITs or two technical people, I can assure you they want technical information, so you better know your stuff. If there’s a HR person, it’s usually behavioral event, “Tell me about a time you did this. Tell me about a time you’ve done that.” So, you have to be able to prepare for both. But when it comes to the second interview, so if you got through the first, the second interview is all about cultural fit.

Grant Williams:

The first interview is, can this guy do the job that we are looking for? Tick. Do we think he’s going to fit in? Maybe.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

Then you have your next interview, and that’s where they find out if you fit into the company.

Marina Pitisano:

And that is a hard one because it’s your personality. How are you going to show that you can fit into the company? Because it all depends on your attributes, your values, and how you’re going to sit in that interview.

Grant Williams:

It also depends what’s important to the company, because a lot of companies are only going to care about, what do you add to the bottom line? As long as you’re not going to make life difficult for the people around you. But you can make the most wins, and you can identify how to get them, that’s probably going to get you over the line.

Andrew:

True.

Grant Williams:

But a lot of companies want people who won’t push the envelope, won’t rock the boat.

Marina Pitisano:

However, we can find out. So, the way … What’s interesting, and this is where I work very closely with my clients and we spend a lot of time is we glean a lot from the first interview. So, we learnt a lot about the types of questions they asked, what were they really looking for? Because you can tell by the questions they ask. What did Andrew spend a lot of time in on the interviews? And the ones that he didn’t feel he was very comfortable, who were the individuals that he’s now going to report to? And we did a lot of research on what was important to them.

Marina Pitisano:

And through the first interview, you glean a lot of information around, what is it that you’ll have to really present well in the second interview to be able to then win them over. So, again, that’s not something you’ll know if you work on your own. I mean, I’ve got 15 years of HR background, I’ve been doing this role for a long time. I’m able to say, “Okay, they’re going to look at wanting this sort of person having this sort of background with this information. We need to stress these points a lot more in the second interview,” which is what Andrew did.

Marina Pitisano:

So, when he went into the second interview, he stressed some really … Like, you stressed a lot about SAS and technical, remember?

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

You really had to stress.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Because remember, there was a lot of questions about, “But can you do this? And can you do that?” And you had to be really … He had to be really prepared to go down to the nitty gritties because his manager was in the interview and he wanted technical, technical information. And Andrew was prepared for that. And because he was comfortable, he just delivered it.

Grant Williams:

And I’m guessing an interview that takes that kind of tack tells you that you don’t have a team of 15 below you who can support you on a technical level. You’re going to have to be hands on. You’re the technical guy.

Andrew:

True. Yes.

Marina Pitisano:

Correct. And the other thing is, is that … Just another thing that’s really important. And it was important in Andrew’s case. I’m not sure if Andrew … What it was, was that it’s the questions you also ask at the end of the interview. And I always have the controversial questions. So, a-

Grant Williams:

Okay, what are they?

Marina Pitisano:

A controversial question is, what is … So, you’ve got people in the panel and you know what maybe X and Y is going to be your manager. You actually ask them what their management style is. So, therefore … And I’ve had many of my clients ask that question, “What is your management style?” And they’ve actually had to look at each other. They’ve literally stopped and looked at each other and thought, “What do we actually answer here?” Because it’s a two-way conversation.

Grant Williams:

Can you ask a question like, “What’s the employee churn in this department over the last 12 months?”

Marina Pitisano:

Perfect. Yes. You know, we talk about what is the culture? But-

Grant Williams:

Do they answer that honestly? Or do they fudge?

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, no. I think they do answer it honestly. They actually will tell you. One of my clients said, “What is the turnover?” And they actually had to say that the role that person was going for was turning over a lot, had turned over a lot.

Grant Williams:

And can you ask the question.

Marina Pitisano:

And the reason why-

Grant Williams:

Yeah, can you ask the question why?

Marina Pitisano:

Yep. Yep, and they told her. They told her. It was just-

Grant Williams:

What’s deficient in your management of this department that is causing this churn?

Marina Pitisano:

No, that’s an agenda question, you know? What is it in your management style that’s causing … But why it’s really important, I cannot believe how many people … And I’m not sure, I don’t remember what your controversial question was because I have a few. What was interesting is they all stop and they stare at each other and thing, “I wasn’t expecting that answer.” One leader turned around and said, “That’s an interesting … How do you like to be managed?” They turned it back.

Andrew:

Yes, yes.

Marina Pitisano:

They turned it back on the individual, remember?

Andrew:

I think it happened to me.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, exactly.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

How do you like to be managed?

Andrew:

How do you respond to it or which management style?

Marina Pitisano:

Exactly.

Grant Williams:

Well, I hope someone higher than them was in the interview and going, “Well, I think we’ve just found a new department head.”

Andrew:

Well, you never know. I mean, those sorts of [crosstalk 00:48:41]-

Marina Pitisano:

And another question was really good which game up the other day is, is there any area that I have not discussed or highlighted enough for you today that I need to expand on so that you will then think I will be a successful candidate for the role?

Andrew:

Yes. Pretty much how I closed off.

Grant Williams:

Do you have like a list of four or five questions that you always go to in this?

Marina Pitisano:

No, I don’t. I don’t have all the same. It all depends, because the questions Andrew asked were very specific to what he was going for. Depending on the role, there’s always a controversial question. But there’s always four or five key questions, depending on the role, because sometimes you need to know your onboarding. Sometimes you need to know, you want professional development, really depends. I mean, Andrew was not going to talk about professional development because he’s got to go in as a technical expert. So, he had to go in … So, if you say, “Well, what’s the professional development?” They’re going to be like, “You’re the technical expert. We’re buying you.”

Grant Williams:

But isn’t that almost the same question as saying, “What are the prospects for advancement within the company?”

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, but it just depend son where you’re at. Like, Andrew’s going in at a senior level. The expectation for that would be that he would be there for a couple of years. He might not even have another level because he’s quite senior. The next level would be you, the boss.

Grant Williams:

Well, there’s the board. That’s right.

Marina Pitisano:

Right? So, you sort of don’t want to ask that question because you really want to understand how you’re going to work in that environment, what support you’re going to have in that environment, how you’re going to work with that manager, what’s the strategy? Whereas, more junior roles, they might want to know about advancement, they might want to know about professional development. So, it just depends on what you’re applying for and where you’re at that you need to pitch your questions.

Grant Williams:

So, Andrew, it took about six to eight weeks to settle yourself into the role that you were happy with.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

Are you still there?

Andrew:

It’s funny you ask that question, Grant. I’ve actually moved on. So, another opportunity sort of presented itself. So, WorkSafe … Can I say that?

Marina Pitisano:

You can take it out if you have to.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

We can say that it’s a government quango. It’s a quango.

Andrew:

So, they changed location and the work location arrangements weren’t entirely suitable. So, I looked around and was approached about a role. And that was at a much more convenient location, better money. But a completely different industry, a completely different challenge and a different skillset. I went and had the interviews. I used the techniques that Marina had taught me and sort of lent heavily on some of that previous workings.

Grant Williams:

Well, they’re skills that you’ve gathered.

Andrew:

Yeah, absolutely.

Grant Williams:

So, they’re not in your toolkit.

Andrew:

Absolutely.

Marina Pitisano:

In your toolkit.

Andrew:

Yep, so I took that to the interviews and-

Grant Williams:

I think I was looking for, is it the quiver that you put your arrows in?

Andrew:

Arrows, yeah.

Grant Williams:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, I could see the arrows coming out. Yeah. And men are hunters, so the arrows work beautifully, yes.

Andrew:

So yeah, I’ve worked over at an oil and gas company for the best part of 13 months now. So, I finished up with those guys pretty shortly. So, the contract has come to an end. So, I’m sort of in some discussions now for the next opportunity.

Grant Williams:

So, the obvious question is, you started off with 27 years in a bank, the secure safe work. And now you’re doing contract to contract to contract.

Andrew:

Yep. It’s refreshing, it’s fun. It’s challenging. I’m learning new things, maybe not technical skills, but I’m certainly learning about the industry that I work in. I’ve met some really good people along the way. And I feel like I’m contributing to those teams and the roles that I have actually worked in.

Grant Williams:

And are most of the opportunities in the field that you want to work in, are they now as a rule contract roles where they’re a defined period?

Andrew:

I think there’s a balance. Yeah, no, there’s definitely a balance. Maybe contract roles are more around midyear, sort of end of year timeframes with budgets and that sort of thing being allocated to particular teams as they need resources. So, it is a little bit cyclical in that way. And elections probably also are a factor there. So, the contractor market’s quite strong within Melbourne, particularly in a technology space. But also in analytics as well. And a lot of the technology tool sets that we use within technology are also transferrable into a business environment. But it’s about articulating how you can bring that technology background to a business environment and actually contribute and get good results for the team.

Grant Williams:

Are there opportunities for someone with your skillset to look at offshoring so you can be located here, but manage teams who are offshore?

Andrew:

Potentially, yeah. I was doing a little bit of that with IBM. And I went to Delhi with a team and we trained up a group of guys over in Delhi to pick up roles and functions within our team. And we transitioned work packages to them and came back and managed them all remotely from Australia. And that was maybe a phone dial up, maybe a screen demonstration, a video conference, or something like that. So, it’s certainly doable. There are challenges around that of course. But yeah, you can do that.

Grant Williams:

So, where do you see yourself within your career in the next five years? That’s one of those good questions, isn’t it? To ask.

Marina Pitisano:

That is one of the questions people can ask.

Andrew:

That’s a little reflective. Look, you know, it really depends on what the next opportunity is. So, I’ve got a couple of conversations going at the moment. And one that I’m really keen on, and it’s working with a health company and integrating a government contract. I’m not sure if it’s … How much commercial in confidence-

Grant Williams:

Yeah, but it’s a technology integration role.

Andrew:

It is, yeah.

Grant Williams:

And I’m guessing that the company that has the contract hasn’t had something like that before, so you’d have to bed one in.

Andrew:

They do some contracts already, but they’ve tendered and won-

Grant Williams:

Won something that they-

Andrew:

[crosstalk 00:55:55] a competitor. And they’re going to integrate that contract into their environment. And there’ll be some technology stuff that needs to happen. But there’ll also be a business aspect and also managing a client type aspect to the role. But that’s a full-time role, actually. So, it’s really interesting to me.

Grant Williams:

So, in your position now, and I don’t mean your work position, but your position as a skilled individual, are you still learning or gathering technical skills? Or are you more gathering people and management skills at this stage in the career?

Andrew:

Look, I like to keep hands on the tools. And with BP, I’ve been fortunate to be able to not have my particular tool sets available to me, so I’ve had to teach myself how to use a new programming language, and plus some other tools as well to help visualize that data and present it back to your management team, stakeholders, and that sort of thing. So, I’ve really enjoyed that part of it. It’s actually made me, maybe not more self aware, but actually stimulated that learning side again. And I’ve really enjoyed that. But I’ve also tried to be more of a coach to some of the admin team within our group and help them develop their skills as well. So, that’s another aspect to the role that I’ve really enjoyed whilst I’ve been over there. But I’ll try and carry that forward and keep on working on both sides. And I guess at some point, I’d like to move into more of a leadership focused role. But I still would also like to be technically challenged as well.

Grant Williams:

Board of directors, here we come.

Marina Pitisano:

But I just wanted to make a few comments about what Andrew just said is that, what’s nice, and maybe you’ve noticed this, Grant, in the few podcasts we’ve done, is that every single one of them is set up for success. So, working with a career coach, or working with me, I think it’s important that if you’re … You know, it’s not just about working with me, but it’s about working with an expert in the field, is that once they learn the tools and once they know what they have to do, they have an appetite for change. So, you know, we’ve met a few along the way that they’ve started out really wanting to get out or not happy in a current role or needing more. And then, once the foundation is built on how to do the job application well, how to interview well, networking and using LinkedIn, all those tools, once you learn that, they become your toolkit for life, where you can just draw back on that. But they also have the appetite to continuously change.

Marina Pitisano:

So, all of a sudden, they’re no longer afraid of being stuck in a job that they don’t like. They’re thinking of other opportunities. They’re looking at either upskilling or now even taking on bigger and better roles. So, I think that’s the important part of having support is being able to be comfortable with change and being comfortable with moving to bigger and better places, and not having that stuck feeling and being stuck, because now they’ve created their toolkit, they know what to do. And they’re continuous. And you’ve heard that through the themes of the podcast that, yes, it was really hard to get out the first, or there was a reason why they had to move. But once they were on their role, they’ve just been able to get bigger and better roles because they’re focusing on that. So, I think that’s really critical.

Grant Williams:

Well, it’s that mindset. And it’s really coming through from you, Andrew, that you are looking at change and even feeling stuck as an opportunity, rather than a threat.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And I think when you look at career like that, and it can be any kind of work really, there’s always something positive to move into if you look. But if you’re feeling terror and dread about making a move, or if you’re feeling shackled and you can’t move, I would imagine that that’s how you start to think, “I don’t know anything. It’s 25 years since I went to college and I don’t know anything.”

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, it’s all that dread.

Grant Williams:

That’s right. And really, if you look around what you do in your day to day life, everyone’s got heaps and heaps of marketable skills, but they just have to recognize them. And I think it’s been great hearing Andrew moving obviously forward and ever upward and not feeling like you’re being bashed around by a big corporate bully, because a lot of people in work feel like that.

Marina Pitisano:

And I think the other thing that’s important, and I don’t want to … I’m not going to … I can’t think of the word, expose it. But Andrew’s not a young man. He’s not in his 20s or his 30s, are you?

Andrew:

No.

Marina Pitisano:

Right. So, he’s a mature man who sees the world as his oyster and thinks … You know, he’s now doing contract work and he’s comfortable with it and he loves it and he can see the purpose of it. And that means age is not a barrier. Age has got nothing to do with it.

Grant Williams:

You’re also a realist, aren’t you, Andrew?

Andrew:

I’d like to think so, yes.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, he is.

Grant Williams:

You can’t go back and sit in your office and go, “I’m going to wait for the next open ended tenure position that I walk into and it’s a 20% increase in salary.” I mean, those days are gone.

Andrew:

Yeah, absolutely.

Grant Williams:

And that’s why I asked you about feeling comfortable about contracting, because-

Andrew:

It’s not just about the money, it’s also about learning and development opportunities. But the money will come as you build your experience and you get your skillsets up and you diversify and demonstrate what you can bring to a company. And I think the rewards sort of flow from that.

Grant Williams:

Yeah, definitely.

Andrew:

You know, it’d be nice to, as I say, want for the contract opportunities to come with lots of dollars. But with the dollars also, there’s risk, and there’s also pressure.

Grant Williams:

And contracting’s highly competitive.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And it’s results oriented, but you don’t get five years to prove yourself. You might get six months to move the needle on whatever they want.

Andrew:

A lot of contracts start at three months now. And that’s more almost … I think that’s almost the standard in a lot of opportunities. But you know, the six month contract is actually a nice sort of time. My most recent contract was 12 months, so I was really fortunate to come across that and glad I made that jump to do it.

Grant Williams:

Actually, that leads me to a question that is maybe difficult to answer. But were you clear about how you would be assessed in the role? Like, if it’s three months is the time period now, are you clear about how you will be evaluated in that short time period before you take the role?

Andrew:

To be honest, when I walked in there, I felt that I had some clear goals. And the goalposts shifted as the contract developed. And to be honest, it was a fairly fluid sort of environment and role. So, a lot of the expectations were around delivering as the goalposts moved. And that made it really challenging, but also interesting to be able to try and respond and meet the challenges and requirements that were coming through. But once you get past that three months stage, you’ve got enough time in the organization to have your-

Grant Williams:

You’re familiar with how things work.

Andrew:

Exactly.

Grant Williams:

You should know how you’re going to be judged, yeah.

Andrew:

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And then it allows you time to develop.

Grant Williams:

Evaluated.

Andrew:

Hopefully you get that time to be able to develop responses to situations and start to get some wins on the board. Help the team sort of move forward and get past a lot of the challenges that they might be facing.

Grant Williams:

Marina, how positive was Andrew when you first met him? Is he a far more positive man now than when you first met him?

Marina Pitisano:

It’s a hard one because Andrew’s a lovely man. But listening to him now, I’m beaming. I feel very proud. It’s like these are my children, in the sense that when I first met Andrew, he was just … There was more a lack of confidence. And also this lack of confidence or this lack of direction of what’s possible and where could I go?

Grant Williams:

Is that a focus thing?

Marina Pitisano:

It wasn’t just a focus. It wasn’t just a focus because he knew what he wanted to do, but he just didn’t know whether it was possible. Now, having the opportunity to have moved from one organization to another. Then I like the fact that he took control and took charge and thought, “It’s probably not the best ideal situation for me. So, I know what I have to do. I’ll just get back out there. I’ll get back on the horse and now try it again. I did it once, I can do it again.” So, that self belief, that self confidence, that I can do it came through. And then, being able to win that and then realizing, “I actually like it here. I actually think these are really good opportunities. It meets my skillset. It meets my needs and I can do this,” is now like looking for more. So, from the person that I met maybe a couple of years ago, which was, “Do you think I can get out? Do you think I can get another job?” To, “Not a problem. I’m just moving onto the next one,” is just really, really love to watch that real difference in journey.

Grant Williams:

So, as we get to basically the end of our time, you get to ask the one, two, or three questions that we haven’t asked yet.

Marina Pitisano:

Okay.

Andrew:

The difficult questions.

Grant Williams:

The difficult questions. Well, I’m sure there’s something I’ve missed, I’m sure.

Marina Pitisano:

Well, the only question I’d like to ask is, Andrew, when you think back of the last couple of years, what do you think … What was the key ingredient that made you successful? What was it that you felt that because I got that right, or I had that approach, or this was what I focused on, what actually got you to be where you are today? What was that one or two things?

Andrew:

That is a challenging question, thank you.

Marina Pitisano:

I told you I always have the controversial questions up my sleeve.

Andrew:

Look, to be honest, I think a lot of what we worked on, I sort of felt like I had some of what we worked on. But I think the polish that you helped put onto those areas that I felt I thought I was okay, that really changed the way I thought about myself. And it brought out my own … A little bit more confidence when I’m in maybe an interview or whether I’m applying for a role or speaking with a recruiter. I like that you helped me understand it’s okay to reach out to people who are advertising roles and they might have their details. I sort of take that almost as an open invitation to pick up the phone and have a chat. That role may not be particularly suited for me, so if I’ve got someone in my network, connect them and link them in literally. So, I like to do that where I can.

Andrew:

But I think for me personally, the way that we work together, the confidence that I got from doing a lot of the one on one sessions with Marina, that really helped me when I went to an interview situation. And I wouldn’t say I feel totally comfortable in that environment. It’s always maybe not nerve wracking. But I know if we follow a process that Marina and I had worked on, and use maybe not the same approach, very similar, I think that puts me in a lot better position to be able to maybe secure the next role. And I feel a lot more confident when I go in there.

Grant Williams:

There’s a coach I know from a different field who says, “Nobody’s going to punch you in the face.” When you go to something and it’s new and whatnot, nobody’s going to punch you in the face. It’s going to be all right.

Marina Pitisano:

It’s not that scary.

Andrew:

They’ll only say no if they don’t like you.

Marina Pitisano:

Exactly.

Grant Williams:

And no is just an opportunity for the next person to say yes.

Andrew:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

I mean, you have to be prepared to follow your yellow brick road and see where you’ve been in the rear vision mirror. And that’s a mindset thing. And I can see you’re extremely positive as a bloke sitting here now. And I just wonder how much you had to chip around the edges.

Andrew:

There was a little bit of chipping away, yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

There was a little bit of chipping, a little bit of chipping.

Andrew:

Reshaping.

Marina Pitisano:

But it’s not hard when the diamond is there, remember that.

Andrew:

I think you’re being too kind.

Marina Pitisano:

No.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

No, I’m not. It’s never too hard when the diamond is there. You just need to chip a little bit and then it uncovers.

Andrew:

Yep.

Grant Williams:

Well-

Marina Pitisano:

Just remember that.

Grant Williams:

Andrew, the diamond, the rough cut diamond.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Thanks for being here with our stone cutter, Marina.

Marina Pitisano:

I love being a stone cutter. That’s a really good one. We come up with all different themes every single time.

Grant Williams:

Well, actually, you’re a gem cutter, because-

Marina Pitisano:

Thank you.

Grant Williams:

Because-

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, because they’re all different gems.

Grant Williams:

And whenever I say stone cutter, I think of that episode on The Simpsons.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Have you seen that one?

Andrew:

I haven’t seen that one, no.

Grant Williams:

The royal order of the stone cutters. It was a shocker. But yeah-

Andrew:

I’ll look it up.

Grant Williams:

Well, yeah. It’s worthwhile. Homer’s a beauty in the stone cutters, a play on the … What are they called? The Masons.

Marina Pitisano:

The Masons.

Grant Williams:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

It’s making fun of The Masons.

Andrew:

Okay.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

So, thanks again, Marina.

Marina Pitisano:

Thank you, Grant for another great episode.

Grant Williams:

You’ve bought in a … Well, a diamond, a gem. I love the positivity coming out of this man. Thanks very much, Andrew. It’s been a pleasure.

Andrew:

Thanks, Grant. Thanks, Marina for having me.

Marina Pitisano:

Thank you. Thank you.

Andrew:

Yeah, thanks.

Grant Williams:

And all the best in your future steps in your career.

Andrew:

Thank you very much.