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Grant Williams:

It’s the Letz Create Your Career podcast. Our first guest … I’m Grant Williams, the co-host. And all I do is push buttons and move knobs and things like that.

Marina:

Hi, Grant. How are you?

Grant Williams:

Oh, Marina. Why are we doing this today?

Marina:

Because I’ve worked with a lot of people looking for career success. And I thought it would be great to tell their story, to hopefully inspire other people to create successes in their career.

Grant Williams:

Do you know anyone who’s been a success?

Marina:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

And that we might be able to talk to?

Marina:

Yes. I have my lovely friend I would say now, not just a previous client, Deepali, who’s going to share with us her story about her success in a career in Australia, considering she’s not from Australia but came to Australia many moons ago.

Deepali:

Thank you, Marina. Hi, Grant.

Grant Williams:

Hi, Deepali. Thanks very much for being our first victim.

Deepali:

I’m totally honored to be here.

Grant Williams:

Now, I would like to know … You’ve come from India.

Deepali:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

Which is currently dominating the world in cricket. They even want to take over the World Cup in football. They make arguably the best movies in the world. What made you come here to chase kangaroos and get bitten by snakes and spiders?

Deepali:

I think that’s a very interesting question, I must say, having spent most of my life in India. And I’ll give you a quick gist of my family and my upbringing as well. I come from a very middle class family. My father had a full-time job with a public sector unit and my mother, like most women in those days, a very obliged homemaker. And we were trained to focus highly on education, focus highly on doing very well for ourselves in our careers, and learning everything my parents could teach us.

Deepali:

I’ve been in the IT industry for over 20 years, and that gave me an opportunity also to travel and live around the world and work with large, multinational organizations. It was indeed a very logical step for me to look for a different and a better quality of life, lifestyle, I would say, as well as work opportunities. And Australia was a very obvious choice with everything Australia has to offer as a country in terms of work, in terms of opportunities and overall lifestyle.

Grant Williams:

I’m always interested to know when I speak to somebody from a Commonwealth country, a former British dominion, why did you want to come to Australia rather than Canada or New Zealand or perhaps even USA?

Deepali:

That’s a brilliant point. I actually did a comparison between Canada and Australia before I moved. I did not consider New Zealand so much. Being closer to Australia, I thought I’d start off at Australia. New Zealand is a place I would typically like to visit, not necessarily live for a long time per se. And between Canada and Australia at that point in time, it was purely based … I think both the countries had great opportunities and offerings in terms of work and the growth and development. One of my key reasons of choosing Australia was definitely the weather. It’s extremely cold in Canada, as against in Australia. And Australian lifestyle is very diverse mix of a balance between people focusing on work as well as life outside of work, whether it’s outdoors activities, sports, culture, music, theater. There’s just enormous number of things that people do where I thought Australia is the right fit for me.

Marina:

When you came to Australia had you already have a position in Australia, or did you arrive and had to navigate the market to find a role? What happened to you?

Deepali:

Yeah. When I decided I’d move to Australia, Marina, I initially applied for a permanent residency visa. And I came in just with two suitcases. I did not have enough connects in Australia as well as any job that was waiting on for me. And I had very little knowledge of the country or the job market in totality. And coming as a complete freshman, I would say, it was a totally new, uncharted territory for me to look at Australia and my life that would be in Australia thereafter.

Grant Williams:

Deepali, can I ask how long ago was that, that you made the decision to come to Australia?

Deepali:

This was four years ago. It’s not very long.

Grant Williams:

Now, did you think the career opportunities that were open to you, and this is when you were in India, before you’ve made the journey, did you feel that the industry you wanted to work in was fairly open to you?

Deepali:

I’d say I initially had a mixed experience. While on one hand, being in a technology industry, technology is quite region or location agnostic. Around the globe, it’s the same set of technologies, the latest ones that people work on, latest technologies that most companies would like to leverage, as well as in terms of how technology work is undertaken, it’s quite similar around the globe. And that’s expectation that I came with as well, especially having lived in a number of other countries. To me, it’s a picture of a Western world that I had in my mind.

Deepali:

And I’d say I had a mixed experience, wherein in terms of when we talk theoretically about the roles and the jobs and how the market operates, it’s very similar to how it operates in rest of the world. However, in terms of where I found it different was I believe people’s level of appreciation of when people come from different countries, what their backgrounds are. When we talk about skills, what do they really mean? And also an element where I believe there is a slightly additional level of proving that one has to do to be able to seen in the market, I would say.

Grant Williams:

Now of course, I have to ask you what other countries you’ve lived in. And when you lived in those countries, were you working in the same field? Were you working in IT at the time, or just having a good time?

Deepali:

The countries where I have worked and lived in are, I worked in the States. I’ve worked in the UK. I’ve lived in Canada as well. And India, of course. And I’ve always worked with large, multinational organizations. And I like that because the work culture in a large multinational is quite different from any organization that is focused on a specific region only. And having worked in different countries and with people from around the geography, it was quite different when I first landed in Australia, where I realized people would not know much about other countries and backgrounds of migrants in general. And a lot of the view is formed from what people would see in the documentaries or media, which is only I think a very small fraction of a percentage for that country. And this is not something which is unique to Australia. If you were to look at any other country, people who do not move globally would have a very, very narrow and a limited view of how the rest of the world operates. And the similar experience I had when I arrived in Australia.

Grant Williams:

Marina, can I ask you before we move on a bit-

Marina:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

To just tease out something that Deepali said about the way people in different countries view the experience and perhaps the competence of people from different cultures. Do you think that in Australia we have some kind of ethnic or racial … Barrier’s not the right word. But prejudice towards people from Deepali’s culture in the IT industry?

Marina:

What’s interesting what Deepali’s saying, and what I’ve noticed and observed and how I’ve worked with people from other countries in Australia, is that they don’t really recognize their capability and ability. They actually dismiss it many times, because many times am I saying … Or organizations aren’t recognizing individual’s education. People that are trained and educated overseas, they’re actually not recognized here. If you don’t even recognize their education, which is what your skillset is formed through, and we simply side that and then start to look at experience, in some organizations the fact that you have had experience overseas is recognized. And possibly IT’s probably the one and only, because they’re appreciative of how far more advanced you might be. But in many cases, the recognition of these skills from overseas isn’t always primary. No.

Marina:

And I think that is probably what you were talking about, Deepali, and the fact that people are assuming what these cultures can offer. And what I heard from what you said is you’ve got a seniority. This is what I love and this is why I wanted to invite you, is that a lot of people think that the migrants are more blue collar. They’ve come to our country to take some of the roles that possibly, white Australians won’t.

 

Oh, I just wanted to say that. And that was what was great, is that there is more and more of these educated, amazing migrants coming to our country, which we can learn a lot from. And we’re actually dismissing them way too early simply because they haven’t got a visa, their visa prohibits them, or their recognition of their education … And sometimes even their experience isn’t as recognized as it should in Australia.

Grant Williams:

Deepali, that leads to a question in two parts. How did you find the Australian job market as an entrant, as an aspirant, really, before you had your position? And then once you secured a position, how did you find the workplace culture? Did you find that you were valued to the level or to the extent that you had been at home?

Deepali:

Sure. See, Grant, I had worked in the technology industry all through my life, and good thing was even after moving to Australia I did not have to and I did not intend to change my career or make a career move into another industry. And Australia has been quite welcoming, and the number of opportunities in the technology space are abundant. And I would say there are as many challenges as well. The opportunities are immense in terms of the types of roles, the types of organizations, the locations, the flexibility the organizations offer, and they’re world-class, I would say. In comparison to any other country in the world, Australian companies have really good benefits that they’re offering.

Deepali:

At the same time, as a new migrant and as an aspirant like you said, there are definitely initial challenges. One is to understand how the market operates in the first place, which is … I would say it has its own flavor in comparison to what I have seen in the other countries. The heavy reliance, definitely, on networking and the relationships is prominent. Which would happen in other countries as well. However, in the Australian market it’s quite more so. Especially it becomes important for a new migrant. Quite likely, majority people like myself would not have a previous network that they can rely on. And hence my first approach was to build my network with the recruiters that I was connecting with, and I heavily relied on the online channels to get to know about the organizations, understand how the market operates.

Deepali:

Beyond connecting with the recruiter for a job search, my initial view was to take input from them and get insights on the organizations, markets, roles, and what is that would work for me. And I’m really glad most recruiters would happily share all the insights. They would have industry trends available with them, there are then analytics that were available with them. And having connected with a number of recruitment firms, it also gave me a view as to how the recruitment industry itself is shaped here, where there’s a wide range of recruitment firms that deal with high-volume and low … Not quality, but they basically deal with high-volume recruitments as against headhunters and senior exec recruiters, as against recruiters who focus on understanding the candidate profile and the fitment before they place them to any client.

Deepali:

And having an understanding of the market was critical for me. I was able to also take insights on how I should position my experience, my candidature. And looking at not just about the CV and the cover letter, however, what the requirements were for the market and the demands were and how I could ensure that I stay and ensure that I have upped my game. Competition’s extremely high in Australia. One should not forget it’s a global market, and the people from all over the world who’ve come in. And people who mostly migrate to Australia are the top league peoples in their own, respective home countries. And hence ensuring that I am competent enough to be able to stay ahead in the queue, where for any role that’s published today across industry you have hundreds of applications within a few hours. And hence ensuring whether it was my credentials, certifications, my education or my experience, positioning. And beyond that, cultural fitment, that I’m able to portray best.

Deepali:

And beyond that, I think all of this in totality becomes quite demanding, I would say. Where as a new migrant, you’re definitely under the pressure to find the best available role and a job and be able to return back to a stable lifestyle that one had before. As well as the pressure of looking for a new job and the newness of the country and the job market. And at times also, I would say the response is not so positive, which is not very easy to deal with. And going through this entire emotional and psychological impact as well, one needs to ensure that they have their family and friends close. Seek as much help and take as much help as possible, and do not hesitate, is what I would say. Where typically in the past I would not approach so many people and ask for their inputs, but I think it was stepping out of my comfort zone to reach out to people I did not know and look for inputs and insights from them.

Grant Williams:

You said you reached out and got help from a number of people.

Deepali:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

How did you come across Marina?

Deepali:

That’s a very interesting story as well. I think it’s my lucky stars that I was able to connect and I was introduced to Marina. I was working with a large bank in Melbourne, and the bank decided to do a major restructure across all of their divisions. And as part of the restructure, one of the objectives was also to reduce the head count and go into different ways of working for the organization. And I came in touch with Marina as part of the organization’s offering for people who were either being made redundant or were looking to leave the organization for other opportunities. And it being a very large and, I would say, thoughtful organization, they decided they would have people like Marina come and help the employees in understanding the restructure as well as making decisions on whether they’d like to continue or move on to other opportunities.

Grant Williams:

What I guess I’m trying to draw out is Marina’s role in your, let’s call it a career story, a career journey. But it’s an upward trajectory that you’ve been on since you arrived.

Deepali:

Absolutely.

Grant Williams:

Marina’s part is quite late in your Australia journey. I hate that-

Marina:

What I was going to-

Grant Williams:

I hate that word because I feel like we’re talking about I’m a Celebrity … Get Me Out of Here!

Marina:

No, no, no, but I think what’s probably interesting for me is the fact that just listing to what you discovered when you arrived and what you needed to look for, which is networking and recruiters. And you discovered that, you researched that very thoroughly to make sure that you spoke to the right people, you got good insight to what was going on in the market, and also navigate the market. What was interesting for me listening to that, and now knowing that we worked together, is what helped you at that point of your career? In the sense that you’re quite smart, you’re quite intelligent, you’re a person that can take on your own resources and look for resources to help you. Where would someone like me or a career coach, how did someone like me help you navigate the market further in the next step of your career?

Grant Williams:

Can I just throw something else for you to add on to that question?

Deepali:

Absolutely, Grant.

Grant Williams:

Because I reckon it’s a gutsy move, to leave a job and turn up in another country without another job already organized. To me, that’s incredibly gutsy. Now, I’m assuming that, as you said, you came from a middle class background in India, so you had some kind of a runway. You had some kind of padding to see you through financially and with your social support. But what tools and what resources did you instantly know you needed to start using before you came here, that are available to everybody and that most people probably don’t use effectively? And how did they help you get in touch with and develop relationships with people like Marina?

Deepali:

Absolutely. Let me cover the story for you where, when I decided I would want to move overseas and have a new life and a new experience, I started also doing a further research on what I would want to do and how is that I can achieve it? One, I leveraged LinkedIn very extensively. And that was one of my golden sources, I would say, to look for organizations that operate out of Australia. I looked at the Glassdoor reviews as well and what people had to say about the companies. And also, I think keeping in mind that a lot of multinationals, while they have operations in Australia, however their remit for Australia and for other countries they operate in could be quite different. And hence, understanding what their remit in Australia was also important to me.

Deepali:

So I did a fair bit of research before I actually landed here, as well as I started connecting with the recruiters while I was still in India. And at that point, one of the important factors that came to my knowledge was Australian market looks for people that are locally available as against hire from overseas directly. And quite rightfully so, because it’s a very supply-rich industry here. And hence people who can join quickly, because they’re locally available, works better for everyone. And hence while I built some of the contacts while I was in India, and some of the recruiters were very kind to respond to me, they spoke with me, gave me all these insights at that point in time, and that helped me prepare before I came in.

Deepali:

When I landed in Australia, definitely going through that entire rigor of looking for a job. I made looking for a job as my full-time job, connecting with enough recruiters during the day, ensuring my applications are sent in time. I would follow up with a phone call to ensure people are able to speak with me, they can sense my personality, ask any questions that they have beyond a CV, which is maybe quite likely within the hundreds of CVs they would have received in the day. And if I had the opportunity to have a coffee catch-up, I would always offer that. And I think this entire approach of taking a job hunt or search for a job as a full-time job really worked really well.

Deepali:

And that’s one of the best advice I had from somebody, where I was very tempted to go in for a part-time job while I was looking for a full-time role that suited my skills and experience. But I stayed away from that temptation, and it helped me focus all my energies on finding the right role. And within a couple of months of my landing here, I had a full-time job that I was able to secure.

 

I think in terms of my engagement in Marina and career coaches in the past, working with career coaches, I see it as an investment in myself. And I’ve been very fortunate. Before I started working and courting the workforce in India, I used to assist a career coach in terms of them helping other students and other clients that they had. And it was more of an orientation for me to learn from others’ experience and see how coaching could change people’s lives.

Grant Williams:

Can I just step in there for a minute? You said one thing that really leapt out, and then you followed up with a smashing six over cow corner. You did two things that most people don’t do, and I want Marina to tell me why they’re really good. You were prepared to do a coffee catch-up, which a lot of people just don’t have the confidence to do. But it means you instantly step way beyond your CV, or any video that you’ve posted on your MySpace … MySpace. Facebook profile or whatever other people are doing. But you also took time to understand the industry by helping someone who is a career coach. You understood the processes involved in recruitment and career development, and to me that says you’re just an exceptional candidate. People will see …

Grant Williams:

Actually, let’s phrase that differently. Not that they’ll see. It will just be obvious to them when interviewing you that you are not like the 250 other applicants that have sent a resume in through the portal. Is that a fair statement, Marina?

Marina:

Well, Deepali is exceptional in the sense that she is able to have those conversations. And when we ask clients that they need to go and have conversations, it’s usually that they’re scared of stepping out of their comfort zone. Many of them think, “Who can I speak to? I don’t know these people.” And they actually don’t back themselves. And it’s important. It’s exactly what Deepali just mentioned, is that it’s about learning. It’s about reaching out to people, and it’s about having those conversations and navigating who you need to speak to. Many people don’t do their homework. They don’t do their research. They don’t also think about the way they’re going to approach it, grabbing people’s attentions and being able to drive a clear message on why they need to speak to people. What’s great about the Melbourne culture is that when you reach out, people will help. And I let people know that all the time. People are always willing to help you, but you have to reach out. You have to make those phone calls. The people that can do that are the ones that lead to success.

Marina:

The other thing that’s really come up, that’s really been noticeable is Millennials. Millennials and Y-Generation don’t like to call. They don’t like to follow up using calls. They like to email, send you a LinkedIn request, send you comments. Now that is great, but that can be overlooked quite easily. Deepali doing what she’s done and being able to drive her career through the conversations and navigating the market and speaking to people and highlighting them, those people have got to know her, have realized her potential, and have been able to place her accordingly for what she wanted. And not having the temptation to steer away from what you really want, and be able to really stay firm when there are so many competing priorities, is really a testament to why Deepali’s successful today.

Grant Williams:

For somebody who is looking to secure … I don’t want to just say a job, because for Deepali it was … You’re at quite a senior level now. Do you think, Marina, that people have to spend as much time looking at their personal skills in terms of being confident, being able to project the right information, which gives a recruiter or, if you contact directly someone in the company, a key person, a reason to get back to you? Do you think people spend enough time working on just something simple like that rather than spending 2,000 hours wondering about the margins and the font on their CV?

Marina:

Exactly. This is a two-part answer. Yes, the key to success is being able to frame the way you speak, how you speak and what you want to say to those key people. You have to be able to grab their attention and you have to be able to say, “I am the one you need to look for. I am the one that you need to invest in,” because as Deepali pointed out, there’s hundreds of applications someone receives. There’s hundreds of phone calls that they could get. And you need to be able to stand there confidently, clearly and articulately inform that person that you should spend time with me because I will be the right person for that job.

Marina:

And that is probably where I spend a lot of time having to coach people around how to have those conversations, how to drive that point. Now when it becomes more senior, like in Deepali’s situation, it’s probably they’ve got that quite strongly, they know themselves quite well. They know what they can achieve. It’s then being able to say, “Well, how do I stand out amongst men and women? How do I then navigate this market, and who are the real decision-makers that I need to speak to to be able to get my situation over the line?” in a market that is quite busy, there’s a lot around happening, but also they don’t know who you are.

Deepali:

And especially, Grant, and I would add to what Marina is saying, in case of migrants where we believe that we bring certain type of value to the table, but it’s important to ensure that that value resonates with what the hiring managers, hiring people, the companies are looking for. And be able to say it and position it in a way that they would be able to understand easily and best. And it’s all about, I would say, value proposition. As a candidate, what is the value that I’m adding to, for example, the recruitment agency? And if they see value in me, they’ll be happy to invest time, go after their clients saying, “Oh, I have this candidate, Deepali, and this is how she’ll fit into your organization.”

Deepali:

And similarly when I approach the organizations directly, I should be able to tell them as to how is that I would be able to add value to them, either by taking up a role or in a consulting way, through my education or experience. And it all at the end of it boils down to, as a candidate, my own understand of what my strengths are, what my experience is, what is that other person looking for, and connecting those dots. And Marina and other career coaches, they do a great job where they understand and they are very candidly able to tell somebody like me that, “Deepali, this is what you do well. This is maybe something you should reconsider.”

Deepali:

And in addition to, not just from a job prospective perspective. See, job prospective’s always just one point in time, event in your career. However, if you look at over all career, that’s where Marina … And in our conversations as well, Marina has helped significantly, is any point in time I have paused to look at what is that I want to do next, she’s been the sounding board for me. Having seen my journey so far, she’s able to say, “Deepali, this is what your personality is. This is what you think you would want to do. Are you sure you’re going to be happy?”

Grant Williams:

That’s a really interesting point that you raise, that you look at your career, if I heard you right, as not just securing a job but that every job and every task and every role that you are doing, is just one point along this continuum from … You started learning at school, or you started learning soon as you were sentient. And then right through your life, you’re developing new skills to take on new roles and achieve new goals and aspirations for yourself. That instantly puts you apart from … I don’t know if it’s a majority, but a great proportion of job seekers see themselves only as a job seeker. Whereas that limits where you can go. It also limits what you will chase, doesn’t it, Marina?

Marina:

Well, that’s interesting that you say that, is because where I work with a client initially, that is what they’re asking. “I need a job.” And it’s through working with them that they understand or they arrive to the realization that, “I need to think of this as a career.” Which is not just the destination today, but where is my long-term journey? Where is it that I want to do? And especially in a situation where someone has been made redundant.

Marina:

I remember asking Deepali this question, and she was like, “Oh.” Which was, “Well, Deepali. If we go for the next role, that’s great. But what ultimately do you want to achieve? Where do you ultimately want to go? And what does that 10-year goal look like? Because that really will impact what we do today.” And asking that question, which a lot of people might ask the question, but being able to spend some time in that space … Especially when there is something that’s happened that’s been quite traumatic, which is a redundancy or a loss of a job or a change of a job, what’s really important there is that a person then thinks, “That’s right. I have a time now to reflect on what is it that I want to do? And how do I now set up my next opportunities so that I achieve my ultimate goal?” Because a lot of people don’t have ultimate goals.

Grant Williams:

Deepali, did you find that situation that you were in, that brought about your meeting Marina, did you find that traumatic in terms of a career development standpoint?

Deepali:

Grant, I will be very candid. All through my career I’ve made so many changes in my jobs, and I’m the kind of person who likes to stay on my toes all the time. Any job change, whether it’s to do with organization’s restructure, initiated by another external factor, or whether it’s my own decision, it’s just another event in my career. And I just move on.

Grant Williams:

That’s exactly what I expected you to say. Because some people are very different to you, and see that any change in circumstance that is related to employment to be deeply personal and a huge blow to the confidence. But that’s obviously not something that affects you. What would you say to somebody who is faced with a change?

Deepali:

Anything to do with change or difficult situations, I think the first thing is to not take things personally. Situations happen with everyone, and especially aspects where it’s restructures, redundancies, layoffs or a job change, career change. Rather, they have a significant benefit in the longer run because you get to try new things. And having that positive attitude and positive mindset, and looking at what you can draw best out of any situation, I think that’s what keeps me going all the time. As well as any job change when as an individual or an employee, when I decide to change a job it’s same as the company deciding that they don’t want thousands of people any more. It’s no different. It’s just mentally how prepared we are about it.

Deepali:

And circling back to the point in terms of the support that we have, even if psychologically any change that we’re not prepared for impacts slightly initially, I think the key lies to quickly overcoming it and getting to an action mode, looking at what is that next you want to do, taking enough support from wherever you can and getting to the outcome that one is looking for. It would be rare, especially in the technology world today, that somebody would have spent their entire career with a single organization. That does not happen at all, and hence keeping oneself market-ready, that’s a golden rule I go by. Even when I have spent years with a single organization, I have always ensured year after year that I’m market-ready. I keep myself upskilled. I go to certifications. I study, even if I do not have the time and the willingness, so much. It’s not easy, I would say, but it’s extremely important. And keeping yourself upskilled and ahead in the game for the industry so that the industry should be ready to pick you up any time you want to go and find something else, that’s critical.

Deepali:

And working with Marina, I would say. It’s important at times where, like any other person, I also get into self-doubt at times. Am I good enough or not? Am I cut for this aspect or not? Or, is this a far-fetched goal? Am I targeting and getting too ambitious? And that way, especially coming into a new country where at times, and initially especially I would say, I used to try and analyze whether what I’m thinking, from the standards here, does it match up or not? And having conversations around those lines really helped me, taking insights from Marina where she would be able to confirm and say, “Deepali, irrespective, this is how it is in the country here or in other countries,” for example. Or the organizations here.

Deepali:

And having those candid conversations one, there was I would say an avenue for me to talk to somebody. Somebody like Marina, who has a wealth of experience behind her in the Australian market. And hearing from her definitely, I think, removed a lot of self-doubts that I had. It confirmed a number of aspects that I was looking for, and overall it brought me into a more confident state than I would have been maybe three years ago.

Marina:

And I think that’s what’s really important about what we mean by career coaching. Because different people have different needs and different levels. As you can see with Deepali, Deepali is very independent, very self-sufficient. It’s just more the check-in. It’s like she’s running a marathon and she’s got check-in points and I’m used as a checker. Like, okay, I’ve got to this check-in point, so what do you think? How do you think I’m traveling? How do you think I’m doing these exercises? How do you think I’m approaching the market? How do you think my resumes are? Is my resume ready? Is it okay to drive? In what ways do I do it?

Marina:

However, that’s Deepali and her needs, whereas when I’m working with other people or other requirements, there’s more needs around how do we build the resume? How do we build the cover letters? What you were talking about. How do I actually speak to a recruiter? How do I actually work with LinkedIn? And how do I actually get out there and have conversations? It’s really important that people’s career journeys are extremely different and require many different aspects, and that’s probably why having this opportunity to talk about people’s stories gives people an insight of where are they in their career journey? What is it they need? Do they need a sounding board? Do they actually need hand-holding? Do they actually need expert advice? Do they really need that initial step of crafting the resume? Do they need career planning? It’s really interesting with what you highlighted that people at very different levels require different information.

Marina:

And what I’m curious to know, based on what you’ve just said, is that when you got into … You told us your journey of getting in. But once you were in, what do you think are the tools? Or, what do you think is the mindset? Or, what advice would you give people on how to navigate the internal cultures of these organizations? If someone said to you, “I really want to work for these organizations. How do I now bring my best forward in those organizations?” What would you say? Especially when they’re migrant, either senior or junior, and they’re actually women. What would you say?

Deepali:

It’s very interesting you brought this up, Marina.

Marina:

I love these subjects.

Deepali:

And I think with every question I keep, at the back of my mind, the thought I have is how beautiful it is to have somebody like you along my career journey where you understand my skills, my expertise, my personality. And while I’m walking or running through my, like you said, the marathon of my career, but being able to turn around and ask somebody, “Oh, this is the event I’m going for. Do you have any guidance, any pointers?” And Marina, you’re so flexible, whether I could call you at nine o’clock in the night or in the morning. Having that support and help, it’s critical.

Deepali:

And I felt that need, like you were asking about being at the workplace where once I was part of different roles and different organizations, I thought besides looking at what my role requirements were and how best I could deliver the objectives I was hired for, I think one of the critical aspects for me was networking and building rapport with people around me. And I like doing that anyhow, I think, as part of my personality. I like to engage with people across levels, across departments. But I realized it was even more important, more so in the Australian context, where people did not necessarily understand me beyond me being a migrant or performing a certain role. And they had very little appreciation for my background. And different organizations that I work with I’ve had variety of questions being asked, to the extent people have asked me if people in India have milk cereal, or is that something that I’ve learnt after I moved to Australia?

Grant Williams:

That’s actually quite relevant though, because it’s only a very recent thing that milk and dairy products have become almost a staple in the middle class and upper class in India.

Deepali:

I would not say so. We’ve had milk and cereal all through my life. I’m into, I think, on higher side of my middle … I’m going through my mid-life crisis, in a way.

Grant Williams:

I heard something on the BBC about this yesterday, that the dairy industry in India has grown 700% in the last five years. And they are now importing a huge amount of dairy cows to support this growth of milk and cheese consumption in India.

Deepali:

It’s amazing, Grant. It’s specifically about dairy. India has lived on agriculture and dairy all through its life. And there is mention of milk and milk products in the mythological books and stories, I would say. And when we talk about all this growth and the documentaries, especially from BBC and some of the American research firms, they are catered … I think they are very much from a Western perspective. And the growth is from an economic development.

Deepali:

However, in terms of how India or any other country is, one should look at quite likely their latest dramas, I would say, their movies, talk to people. And the best thing is visit the country. Even a couple of weeks of visit and you’d realize where the countries are. And I’d be very amazed if I would find any country on the globe today which is not as Westernized as the States or Australia, I would say. India has all American and the British and European brands today. And it’s not just today or last 10 years. We’ve had all of this for a lot of years.

Deepali:

And see, the reason I brought up this entire aspect was it’s not the case to say India is not developed or developed. It’s not about India. It’s about people’s understanding and the amount of effort they have to put when they meet you. While we focus a lot on migrants and the challenges they have et cetera, I also feel as a country, as Australia, we should maybe do a little more where the people who are already here, we do not understand about other countries so much. Before I came to Australia, if you were to ask me questions about Australia I would not know beyond the kangaroos and the Outback and the beaches. But I know much more after having lived here.

Grant Williams:

But if we want to be totally, brutally honest, and I want to ask you a couple of hard questions in a minute. But even in Australia, we don’t know that much about ourselves. We celebrate Australia Day on a date which represents when a white man stepped onto Australian soil, not for the first time, but to actually proclaim a specific part of the land as a British colony, to establish a colony. But it’s not the day that Australia was established. And most Australians, if you talk to them about Australia Day, will say, “Oh, it’s the day that Australia became a nation.” No, it’s not. It’s the day that New South Wales began. But people are ignorant of all sorts of things.

Grant Williams:

I want to ask you whether you found the process of getting a position in Australia, and then moving through your progression in Australia, did you find the culture, the workplace culture specifically, to be discriminatory against you because you’re a woman? And I don’t mean that there was heavy discrimination. But is it just really everyone assumes that the man should get the job and should be the boss? And it’s just something that’s there in the background, it’s the dominant culture. And extending that a bit further, did you find that the decision-makers were ignorant of your skills and background and experience and the level of technical competence and development in your equivalent roles in India? Do you think everyone just thought, “Ah. It’s obviously better here in Australia”?

Deepali:

Yeah. I think you’ve raised a very prevalent point there, and this is one challenge that most migrants highlight when they say they usually get a response that you do not have a local experience. And that’s what alludes to the aspect that locally, people who are in the decision-making positions, most of the people who work with the recruitment firms, they would have to a certain extent a view as to the skills, qualifications of people coming from overseas. But not always so much, I would say, where they understand what’s a fitment. And it takes a fair bit of effort on the decision-maker, the recruiter’s part, to be able to understand and do the right fitment to the roles as well.

Deepali:

And also the aspect of, I would say, resistance to the unknown and the resistance to the something which is different. It’s safe to get people start at maybe one or two levels junior than what they would otherwise fit into, would match with. And let them know that we’ll build it up further from that.

Grant Williams:

Is that what happened to you?

Deepali:

It did. And I was all right initially, and I was all right to go one step back but not too many, I would say. Keeping in view that I did have very candid, open conversations talking about where my experience and strengths were, as well as an understanding that six months down the line or one year down the line, I would look to come back to the level where I should be. At the same time-

Grant Williams:

Did that timetable work out for you?

Deepali:

Coincidentally, I moved on from those organizations before I hit those timelines. And we parted ways, but we parted ways on very good notes where they understood that the next role that I was taking up was definitely a closer match to my strengths and skills, and they couldn’t have offered that.

Grant Williams:

You stepped up?

Deepali:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

And out at the same time.

Deepali:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

Did you know that you weren’t going to get that elevation at the six month time? Could you feel that, and is that why you were looking out and up already?

Deepali:

See, it happened in one situation where I moved out for this very reason. And it was mostly because the role that I was hired for, the way it was described at the time of joining, once I joined it seemed very different. And what was elaborated in terms of size and scale, it finished within three months’ time. And the organization coincidentally did not have anything further in the pipeline for me.

Grant Williams:

That was a clickbait application that they put out there, was it? Sorry to be glib. How about the gender part of the equation?

Deepali:

I do feel, I think while on one hand a lot of my experience has been very positive, there are definitely people in senior positions who are very open to recruiting people based on their talent and the skills as against their gender. And they’re very open, irrespective of where you come from. And whether the CV bears a certain name or not they are very, I think, thorough in their assessment.

Deepali:

At the same time, I would say there is still an element where I felt at time that as a woman, or rather generally as women we are expected to prove much more than men when an application or an opportunity arises. Men are usually given that opportunity based on their perceived potential, and as women we’re asked to prove again and again and the opportunity is given maybe with a view that, “Let’s try it out for you and let’s see how you do.” And that’s something that I find extremely challenging, that the amount of effort I as an individual have to put forward and prove myself to even get the opportunity at the same level or next. That becomes pretty intense, I would say.

Grant Williams:

Marina, I know you want to say something about the workplace culture that is not overtly discriminatory, but discriminatory in two ways. That overseas experience is never counted as highly as local experience. But also that there’s this patronizing view that with the woman of equal skills, we’ll start you a couple of rungs lower. How do you counsel your clients to deal with that? Is it something where you just have to swallow it and adapt to it and then put your planning for your advancement longer term? Or do you try and actually overcome it at the point?

Marina:

Well, it was interesting what you’ve asked me, because in my past experience as a HR manager, and working in cultures, that’s what I was fighting against. And I would call it a fight because we were out there, and this is now taking me back 10 years.

Grant Williams:

And companies will never admit that they do this. They will never admit that the woman who comes in with equivalent levels of experience and equivalent amount of time and experience-

Marina:

And what I recall back of that was very much the boys’ club. That really existed at a time that, back then. I was very fortunate that as a senior HR manager, I was not part of the boys’ club but I was absolutely respected, so I was able to stand up for these situations in the cultures and challenge them on ensuring that women like yourself did not have to prove themselves or take on something lesser simply because they were of a different sex. Ten years later, my role being external to the organizations, it is very much about now encouraging women to not accept those situations. To be able to argue that and be able to put their value proposition forward so that … Men or women, because don’t always assume it’s men. Men and women will-

Grant Williams:

Oh, no. That’s why I say it’s a subtle bias.

Marina:

Men and women will take that person on for the value and they will pick the right person. When it comes to organizations and what happens in organizations, I’m not as involved in that process as I used to be. What I’ve noticed is leadership is still as frustrating as ever. I don’t think we’ve advanced as much. I think that they have moved much more forward when it comes to flexibility of opportunities for men and women. They’ve moved a lot more forward. All our rights and our discrimination laws and stuff have really helped them understand that they’re not allowed to do … What they’re meant to do. I think there is. It’s much more subtle, and I think it’s what you learn from people like Deepali when they’re in the organizations where they can see this. What I wanted to ask Deepali is if I was someone coming into Australia, coming from a migrant background, be it whatever, having to navigate the market and then going into the cultures, what advice would you give them?

Deepali:

See Marina, I would say in general women do not have it easy at the workplace. And women who are migrant or women of color definitely do not. With that, also I think it’s an appreciation that at a certain level of seniority, where skills like being driven, outcome-oriented, being able to speak up, being able to lead, these are required skills of an individual. It’s more acceptable for men to demonstrate these skills, while not so much for women.

Grant Williams:

Women don’t exercise leadership or confidence in being outspoken. And that means they’re bossy, pushy, overbearing.

Deepali:

Absolutely.

Grant Williams:

I mean, it doesn’t seem to have changed much since, well, certainly as far as my memory extends back. And if, you say, there’s a cultural benchmark by watching TV programs and whatnot from the dominant culture from the 1950s and ’40s and ’30s. And still, if four people in a white coat come into a hospital room and one of them’s a man, you can bet the patient will go to the man, “Doctor, what’s wrong with me?”

Grant Williams:

And in today’s situation, he’s just as likely to be a nurse.

Deepali:

Yeah, I’m so much with you on this one, Grant and Marina. Overall when we look at various women forums as well … And it’s very impressive how a lot of organizations are putting time and effort creating diversity forums and running a lot of initiatives, projects around it. But I sense there’s, I think, increased participation from whether it’s men, women or non-conforming genders that’s required. Just telling women that you need to be more assertive or you need to speak up, I think that’s something we’ve done for so long. Women are there already. We need somebody to listen to us as well as being able to action on what women in the workforce have been saying for so long.

Deepali:

And if I were to talk about the advice that I would have, for women in particular, especially migrant women, one I definitely say don’t let anyone tell you what a woman should or should not do. Just do what you want to do. And don’t hesitate, is the rule I go by. Whether it’s about reaching out to people for drinks in the evening or even if you have parenting, childcare duties later on, make time once a week, once a month, some time to do things that you enjoy doing at work with people. Don’t just get bogged down with your day-to-day life. Ensure that you’ve reached out and made the best of what any other man in your position would have done, whether in the job that you’re doing, whether in your personal life, and achieve the best out of it. I think considering gender as a factor in making a decision on what you do and do not do, just throw that out of the door and just make decisions the way you would [inaudible 00:58:44].

Marina:

And I think you’ve touched on a really good point. And that’s why I was probably being challenged by your question, is that I think because I’m not internal and because I’m not part of any cultural structure, and I can support someone externally, I don’t really allow the gender bias or gender concerns to hold any weight. I think regardless of whether you’re a male or female and you’re pursuing a particular career, let’s go for it. And I think that with your story, with what we’ve heard today, you’ve been aware of the culture, you’ve been aware of the challenges, and you’ve been able to overcome them through your intelligence or your research or your diplomacy. You’ve been able to really achieve a level of success by understanding what is going on and dealing with it.

Marina:

And I think that’s my approach as well, is that don’t allow what you think, these assumptions, to hold back. Let’s go for the opportunity, let’s look at what’s available, let’s really put our best foot forward, let’s really promote ourselves as best we can. And if we do feel that we’re in a disadvantage for whatever reason, we need to actually do exactly what you mentioned before, is prove why we’re better. And prove why. And if that means that it does take a little bit more time or a bit more effort, so what? Because that’s what it’s all about, that we can do it and that we have that self-belief, and therefore we will be able to achieve it. I think I’m very fortunate that I am working with people that are trying to get into these places. And it’s all about resourcing them on how to manage their career in these places as best they can, regardless if they’re men or women.

Grant Williams:

Now Deepali, we’ve held you a lot longer than we had agreed. I’ve just got one final question for you, and that is if you rewind, going back four years plus, would you make the journey exactly again? Would you decide Australia is it? You happy here? Or would you deviate slightly?

Deepali:

It’s a big yes, to be very frank. It’s a big yes, I would do the same journey again. I believe for everyone, definitely it’s a big leap people take when they do international relocation. Not just coming into Australia, but people moving to other countries as well. And once you’ve overcome the initial challenges and once you’ve … When I say challenges, the initial hurdles of finding a job, settling in, making friends, going back to your stable lifestyle the way one would have had before, Australia is a beautiful country. People here are beautiful. The values Australia stands for is amazing, and you see people live those day in and day out, especially cities like Melbourne and Sydney. They’re so diverse, but they have so much to offer for everyone, whether you’re a theater person, or a music person, or a movie buff, or an outdoors activities, adventure. And there’s so much more that you can achieve out of life than just look at, “Oh, I’m looking for another job.” And just live the life to your fullest. And I would do it all over again.

Grant Williams:

Marina, how would you want to wrap up for the person who’s listening who is in the situation that Deepali was in four years ago? Perhaps not looking to change countries, but looking to change career or step up and is unsure of where to start.

Marina:

Well, it’s been a real pleasure, Deepali, listening to your story. I mean, I was aware of it and that’s why I was really keen to have you here. And I’m so proud that you were one of our first speakers on your career journey. Because I think that what Deepali highlighted today around all the tools and the tips and her approach in really navigating the market, looking at having those conversations, reaching out to people, understanding the challenges, understanding the obstacles, but finding ways to deal with them and overcome them really came through in your story today.

Marina:

And I think that is probably what these podcasts are all about, is being able to articulate those areas, articulate what are the needs, articulate what the obstacles or the challenges, and then being able to look at how do we overcome them and what were the techniques? What were the processes? What were the behaviors that were used to overcome that? And I think that that’s what was pointed out today. And I think this is what our podcasts are all about, is being able to tell a story, learn from that story, and hopefully inspire someone to drive their story using the insights that we’ve talked about today.

Grant Williams:

Deepali, thanks so much for giving us your time and sharing. I’m sure that anybody who listens will learn far more than I did. I hate using the words like inspired and whatnot but as I said right at the start, it’s such a gutsy move to change countries. And you didn’t step into a job. You took a blind leap of faith. And to me, that is inspiring because it’s just so scary. And just having taken that positive action to make a change in your life, I think it sets the karma ship going. And I reckon anybody who’s listening and is considering a change in career, life … I was going to say family, but you can’t really make the choice to change family so much. But just by taking action, you start off that momentum and you break the inertia and off it goes. And I reckon you’re one of those great assets that migration for Australia has benefited from greatly. And thanks for being number one.

Deepali:

Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Marina, Grant. It’s great opportunity to be able to share my story. And it’s lovely speaking with you.

Grant Williams:

And Marina, you’re the master motivator, the creative genius, the employment manipulator. Let’s give you a whole heap of crazy titles.

Marina:

I love all those titles. I love you, Grant, for doing me all those titles. That’s great.

Grant Williams:

I’m going to come up with one that sticks. For anybody who is in the process of changing careers or thinking about making a move, whatever, and they’ve got a question or they’ve got a question for us to tackle on the podcast, how should they get in touch with you?

Marina:

Very easily. Just send me an email to my email address, Marina@LetzCreate.com.au. Letz is L-E-T-Z, C-R-E-A-T-E. Please just reach out to me, ask whatever question. No question is stupid. Reach out to me, ask me what you need. Tell me about your story. Let me know where you’re at and where possibly I can help you. Please, if you need anything, just reach out to me.

Grant Williams:

I’ve been Grant Williams. I will be back with you and Marina with another fantastic, inspiring guest just like Deepali on our next installment. If you think it’s been useful and you know somebody who could benefit, share it. Share the podcast. Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts. That’s it. See you next time.