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[00:00:00] Grant Williams: [00:00:00] Letz Create Your Career. The Podcast that you have to have, if you’re going through the whole job search and career development, career management process.  I’m Grant Williams, I produce and press the buttons, sometimes well, sometimes badly. And joining me every time we sit down for this, Marina Pitisano, Australia’s foremost job coach, career coach.

[00:00:26] How would you really like to be defined?. Because Aussie described Marina as career coach, job search coach, and career development expert. Which one would you like.

[00:00:39] Marina Pitisano: [00:00:39] Well, good morning Grant. I just love how you keep changing my title all the time, but I love it. I’m actually a Job Search Coach, because I actually work with my client,  while they’re looking for a job.  But I have clients that want to create change, so we work through that.

[00:00:56] I might like to consider for their future and what changes I like to make in their career. And I also career coach people that are in roles and really need some support on how to manage their career in their roles. So I am one of many things, so you can call me whatever you like.

[00:01:14] Grant!

[00:01:16] Exactly.

[00:01:19] Grant Williams: [00:01:19] Always nice things Marina.

[00:01:21] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:21] I know, and they’re lovely. I love them every time. 

[00:01:24] Grant Williams: [00:01:24] Marina, we’ve got a guest as always. Who have you invited [00:01:30] along to share their story today?

[00:01:33] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:33] Well, I’d love you all to meet Maribel. Maribel, welcome to our, let’s create, create your career and podcast called career success story. Welcome this morning.

[00:01:43] How are you?

[00:01:44] Maribel: [00:01:44] I’m good. I’m good. Thank you, Marina, and thank you for inviting me and hello Grant, you as well. So, thank you so much for allowing me to, share my story today.

[00:01:54] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:54] Yep. And Maribel has a very interesting story. As we get into it, you’ll say, why I invited Maribel to come along. Because sometimes even the experts need a little bit of support and a little bit of guidance.

[00:02:08] So it was just a, it was a real pleasure working with Maribel, and I really hope that her story will inspire people to reach out, get some help and invest in their career.

[00:02:19] Grant Williams: [00:02:19] Well, there was an obvious Maribel, but obvious hook that implies that you’re an expert in some field. So give us a bit of a, an insight or background.

[00:02:32] How did you, get into the, the Marina world.

[00:02:36]Maribel: [00:02:36] Well, so I guess, I’m in human resources, so I guess when she says expert, although I struggled to think of myself as an expert, you know, recruitment is part of what I do. So, I think when you’re on the other side of the table, you might presume that, you know.

[00:02:53] If you’re doing the interviewing and recruiting people that you’re able to, do it for yourself. [00:03:00] but, so I, came to work with Marina. We started last, yeah, a couple, couple months ago. So,  to set the same, I had been with, an employer for my previous employer for over 15 years. And I had a fantastic time.

[00:03:17]was  I was employed there, my career really grew. I was led by fantastic ladies. And I really, I guess when I, when it came to the point where I had to kind of start thinking about other roles, it was something unexpected. I had returned from maternity leave a second time, and whilst I was gone on maternity leave, there was a whole

[00:03:40]change in my department. So I came back and the return to work experience wasn’t great at all. It was, disastrous. So it really kind of forced me to, look at what I was doing and whether or not I would stay or, or go elsewhere. So was  I was going through that difficult period, I can find it in a colleague of mine who had worked with Marina previously.

[00:04:07]So she, she knew everything that was going on, with what I was going through and she recommended Marina to me.  To be honest, I hadn’t even heard of career coaches and I didn’t even know that they existed for. Hi child professionals. So, I looked Marina rack online and so, you know, I read a bit about what she, did and the fact that she was able to assist my colleague [00:04:30] in getting her job at, at my employer at that time.

[00:04:33] I thought she must be great. So, yeah, so that’s how I, that’s how I, found out about Marina and I reached out to her and. I think from the first chat on the phone and when you kind of went through what, what you, what you do Marina, I thought this is exactly what I need.  Because my confidence at that point was just absolutely shattered until million paces and I just didn’t have, I couldn’t, I couldn’t put a strategy together or a plan because I just, I just didn’t know how to get myself,

[00:05:02] out of that and into the right frame of mind. And that’s, I think what it’s all about. You’ve got to be in the right frame of mind in order to, to go forward. So that’s how I, how I came across Marina.

[00:05:13] Grant Williams: [00:05:13] Maribel, can I clarify two things? It sounds a little bit like your story is similar to, one of the previous guests that we, that we had.

[00:05:25] And I just want to, Check if the situation was was similar, you came back to work and the workplace had changed. Was that because of a manager higher up the chain in your department being replaced and then wanting to make changes and shake up and make their own Mark?

[00:05:44] Maribel: [00:05:44] Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:05:47] Grant Williams: [00:05:47] Okay. And then

[00:05:49] Did you, did you make the choice to leave or or did you leave with sort of no notice and not prepared for that situation to [00:06:00] arise?  

[00:06:01] Maribel: [00:06:01] No,I

[00:06:01] made, I made the choice to leave. I will say there was a point, during this job search process where I, I nearly did that I nearly kind of just, I had no, would have had no job to go to and I was nearly at that point where I was about to resign.  But I, I didn’t do that and thank God.

[00:06:21] And for a while there, things did improve with the new management. But as a high chopped professional, their fundamental values just didn’t align with mine. I, there was just a lot of things that I didn’t agree with. And I think if you’re going to have an impact in your workplace, you’ve got to, you’ve got to agree with the fundamentals that your reporting manager. You know, the manager you’re reporting to has.

[00:06:44]So yeah, so in the end it was my decision. I worked out my notice period. I, you know, and I went on and found another role.

[00:06:52] Marina Pitisano: [00:06:52] So just to create some clarity is that Maribel came to me at a point where she had returned back to work. Things had fundamentally changed. She didn’t leave the workplace.

[00:07:06] She stayed on, but she was fundamentally. Dissatisfied and didn’t feel that she was going to have a future in the company and then further, because of these changes. So you know, she was, once we clarified what Maribel wanted to do. So she knew that she had to leave. She wanted to leave the organization.

[00:07:27] She wanted to look,  [00:07:30] at what roles she’d like to pursue. And that’s what we clarified. She loved her role as HR. And sometimes people’s clarity gets a little bit minimized because it’s, you know, do, is it the role that I’m doing? Is it the organization that I’m working for? Is it the people later I’m working for?

[00:07:49] So what is it that I’m not enjoying or not being satisfied anymore? What is it that I do want to pursue? So we clarify that it was more the organization and management that wasn’t, creating a satisfying culture or opportunity for Maribel. And then we decided and we reached the point that it was really the role.

[00:08:08] She’d loved the role. She still loves being HR and therefore she wanted to pursue that. So once we got that clarity, we then went straight into job search where. We spent, we did spend a lot of time, changing Maribel’s resume because the most important part of a HR manager is what are your unique skills and what are your unique responsibilities?

[00:08:31] Because HR encompasses many areas. So within identified those areas, and they were able to,  and create a really good resume, which he got a lot of traction with. And I think what I always say to many of my clients is once they get a bit of traction in the market, once they get a little bit of, you know, Oh my God, someone else has given me a call and someone else is wanting to speak to me, it starts to build your confidence in job search.

[00:08:59] You then [00:09:00] realize that, you are valued. You are wanted, and there is, there are other opportunities. So then you can start to build that confidence to move forward. So that was the process that we started with, with Maribel.

[00:09:15] Grant Williams: [00:09:15] Maribel, I’m clear on that, on that process and the design of life. I’m just interested in exactly how you went about it. Which we, you saying Marina that whole time and you, you had another job to walk into as a result of working with Marina before you left.

[00:09:38] You’re at at that time, Karen employer. So you just walked from one riding to another. Yes,

[00:09:45] Maribel: [00:09:45] exactly.

[00:09:48] Yeah.

[00:09:49] Grant Williams: [00:09:49] So that’s a really fortunate position to, to be in. So did, do you think you had an advantage, being in the HR world and knowing how the process. Of selection and hiring goes from the employer side, when, when it came for you to be one of the candidates.

[00:10:12] Maribel: [00:10:12] Absolutely. and at the time, when I was job searching, my role was heavily focused on recruitment. And that was just, a coincidence. It was just a lot of roles to fill. So  I was looking for other roles. You know, my day job was actually recruiting people. So [00:10:30] in my mind, you know, I had, all the questions that I would normally ask.

[00:10:35]so I guess, you know, I did use that to kind of, I guess set my plan up for when I went in for interviews or when I was phone screened. but I guess. It’s still, it’s still difficult talking about yourself and your own strengths. So that’s really the part that I really needed practicing because I never talk about myself or my own strengths.

[00:10:55] And when you’ve been with an employer for such a long period of time and your careers evolved over the years, You know, in one sense you kind of, you know, that imposter syndrome just kind of creeps up on you cause you think, Oh, I’ve just gotten to where I’ve gotten to because of good luck or being in the right place at the right, right time.

[00:11:14]which isn’t the truth. A lot of people, you know, have. You know, fantastic careers. If they’d been with one employer, it’s not as common these days, but, it, it does happen, especially if you’ve got a workplace that is growing and really successful. So, yes. So really, I guess don’t, being on the other side did help, but I still needed, that extra bit of support to actually talk about myself and what I do.

[00:11:40] And what. I, and how I can add value to another, to another organization.

[00:11:45] Grant Williams: [00:11:45] Now, before we go through, what work Marina actually had to do to get you, Job ready? Is that the right, the right word for a new employer? I want to ask you something that I made a note when [00:12:00] you, you mentioned why you needed to make a change, and I, I hate this, this isn’t a hard question. But what would the fundamental values that you held that no longer aligned with your previous employer.

[00:12:19] Maribel: [00:12:19] So I think as a leader, you really need to, you really need to assist people that report into you, grow their professional development. So that was, that was lost. And I also think that a leader, you know, I think that traditional kind of model of, okay, you’ve got a leader up here, and the people that report into them. You know, they’re, they’re sitting up there and the other people are kind of right at the bottom. I, I don’t think that works anymore in the modern, workplace. I think everyone needs to have a collaborative approach. So fundamental was, was gone. And also to be curious and innovative that that was gone as well.

[00:13:03] So, you know, I felt like with , taking a step backwards in our team. We were at some point, at one point doing that, and it was great, and that was what was keeping me going is to be curious and innovative. But we were losing that, because of the new management that had, that had come in. yeah, I started, went backwards.

[00:13:21] Grant Williams: [00:13:21] So

[00:13:22] that sounds to me, without knowing who you were working for, or even what industry, that sounds like you’ve had a [00:13:30] very old school kind of manager coming and say, right. We’re going back to the hierarchical structure and, and and yeah, I guess a lot of people have have been through that and found that it’s a really inefficient way to work and if you need any, if anyone in the, in the line is not good at, at their job and not good at communicating, it’s then becomes a house of cards.

[00:14:00] Marina Pitisano: [00:14:00] If it’s called, it’s called command and control leadership.

[00:14:04] Grant Williams: [00:14:04] That’s

[00:14:04] Marina Pitisano: [00:14:04] right. That’s what it’s

[00:14:05] Grant Williams: [00:14:05] called. It’s all about.

[00:14:07] Marina Pitisano: [00:14:07] Yep. And it’s still is there today. It’s all about, I will command you on, on what to do, and I will control how you do it. And a lot of people in today’s world can’t work and function like that.

[00:14:21] And you know, Maribel is much younger than us. Right. But even those younger, they don’t, they can’t,  identify or work with leaders that have that old style mentality. They expect collaboration, they expect respect, and they expect trust that people will be trusted to do what they need to do. Not have them hovered over there over their shoulder and control every aspect of their work.

[00:14:51] Grant Williams: [00:14:51] Now there’s a really good point for us to go into. How, how you two work through the process. But I want to just follow on from the values [00:15:00] thing. From, from the outside, when you’ve decided to leave and you’re looking for a new employer, how do you, how do you have any way of, of being confident that the new employer will.

[00:15:15] Have the fundamental values that you want them to have. Because most of what an, unless you know somebody who is inside, most of what we say from any employer is pay our rubbish. It’s just fluffing tins. Until you inside. Marina, that’s probably one for you. How did you help, Maribel find an appropriate employer?

[00:15:41] Cause I’m, I’m thinking that maybe 60% of the ones that you can look at are not going to be appropriate.

[00:15:48] Marina Pitisano: [00:15:48] Well, what I’d like to do, thank you for that. I’d like to answer that because you’ll be very surprised when Maribel, shares with you the two roles she had to decide on. That was exactly what she had to pursue and think about.

[00:16:06] So it’s be Mirabel,  answered the question, then I’ll go through how we worked on it. But that’s a fantastic question Grant.  Because that’s exactly what Maribel had to do. And what she made her decision on is very much because of your question. So over to you, Maribel.

[00:16:24] Maribel: [00:16:24] Yeah. So, Iraq grant looky, you know, I’d tried to do as much research as I possibly [00:16:30] could, but, at the end of the day, unless she knows someone who’s working in there, you don’t really know, what it’s like.

[00:16:36] So, I had two, I had two roles that I, was at the final stages of. So one role, From the outset. You know, it looked like there was a lot of, I guess, gratifying work. but I had heard, and the hight Shaun network is actually, once you’re in it, I think there’s a lot of people that you can kind of, go to, to give you kind of insights on what it’s like.

[00:17:00] So one role, Would have been, I guess more in the sports area. and the highchair, later there I was really lovely. I had a great interview with her, great rapport. And then the other role that I was, considering I actually had, a former colleague, was already there. And so she knew exactly what it was that I was looking for.

[00:17:22]this role, had only just come up. So it was a brand new role because the business had taken off and they just needed more support. And she was actually able to give me that insight and tell me, this is what the workplace culture is like. You know, it’s, and, and it was wonderful and it is wonderful.

[00:17:41] I’m in, I mean, there now, all the values, it was all about the people. It was all about every touch point, was so important within that company. they deliberately didn’t want to behave like a corporate, even though they were getting. A lot bigger. And, you know, but they’ve, they really deliberately [00:18:00] don’t want to behave that way because they don’t think that, you know, they don’t believe that that’s what gets the best out of people.

[00:18:06] They want people to really have amazing experiences, as, as team members and as part of the workplace. So at the end of the day, two very different, I guess, raisins. I could have made an impact in the other, the other role that I was looking at and changed it. But I think coming from, my current employer at the time, I think I just wanted to kind of go into a workplace and really, I guess get immersed in that and, you know, and, you know, take off my development that way.

[00:18:36]You know, and there’s lots that I’m learning already, in this role and I love it.

[00:18:42] Marina Pitisano: [00:18:42] So from my perspective, what was really great!.  About this situation with Maribel was that as you heard from the beginning, she lacked a lot of clarity and a little bit of, lack of confidence. But as she continued on and started to get opportunities, her confidence grew.

[00:19:01] And what was really important, and I remember this conversation greatly because we had got to a point where she had. Being given the opportunity to speak, should we give it? She was shortlisted for two roles, and I always remember asking, Maribel, okay, what questions do we need to ask the managing directors of.

[00:19:22] Both of these roles?.  So that we can get some real clarity about the values of the organ, their personal values, [00:19:30] the values of their organization,. What their strategies were?, and how did they manage their people. And Maribel had got to a point where she was courageous enough to ask the really hard questions of an employer, of a potential employer.

[00:19:47] And it’s when we ask our candidates, so when I work with, with my candidates to say it’s a two way interview. You are interviewing them,  just as much as they are interviewing you.  And if you don’t have the confidence to interview your potential employer, you’ll never find out. But Maribel really wanted to make sure that she made the right decision and she was willing to ask the hard questions she had.

[00:20:14] Two interviews for both roles. One was with the they, her direct manager, but the second was with both the managing directors. And I remember Maribel ringing me saying they’re role both fantastic. And the graph. But it was the culture of the environment that she choose the culture of the environment. And that’s the role she accepted.

[00:20:37] She got accepted to both, but the one that she took was she based it on the culture and on the values and how the leader drove those values and changes in the organization. But that’s what’s really important is that asking those specific questions and driving it.  And  if you want to be really courageous, really courageous in your interview, say, [00:21:00] I’d like to meet the team that I’m going to be working with.

[00:21:03] And I’d like to talk to them about what the environment is like, but people will struggle because they want that job. They’re not going to do anything to upset the applecart. Maribel was given that opportunity to speak to some of the team members, get to know the managing director and get to know her direct boss.

[00:21:21] So by doing all that, she was able to create all the ticks in her head and decide, that’s the job I want to go for, and that’s the job I’m going to accept.

[00:21:30] Maribel: [00:21:30] Okay.

[00:21:30] Grant Williams: [00:21:30] Maribel, to help to help listeners to sort of understand a little bit more about, the situation. Before I ask, I hope it’s a good question for Marina, but a two part question for you.

[00:21:45] How do the sizes of the organizations compare for the one that you left for the one that you went to, and were you staying in the same kind of industry sector or were you moving sort of outside of your comfort zone?

[00:22:02] Maribel: [00:22:02] Definitely moved outside of my comfort zone. So my previous employer. I’m going on 11,000 employees.

[00:22:11]and my new employer has about 110. Okay.

[00:22:17] Grant Williams: [00:22:17] Now the one with 11,000, you weren’t working in a, in a, in an, in a built, in a single building or floor with 11,000 people. So your, [00:22:30] your, your work environment in your previous employer. Were you in like the head office group or were you in a satellite group? Okay.

[00:22:38] So that, that head office environment and the team you were working with was about how big?

[00:22:45]Maribel: [00:22:45] So that office, was about 900 people. And I guess in, in terms of, my portfolio and what I looked after, I saw I was looking, so the business had two, two parts to it. I looked after one part that was based in that office and that was about 700 employees.

[00:23:04] Grant Williams: [00:23:04] Okay.

[00:23:04] And the, and the name of the new, the new employer is about a total of a hundred. So that’s one location.

[00:23:15] Maribel: [00:23:15] Well, no, actually, sorry. They’ve also got, team members that are spread out across Victoria.  But, and the support office, is in one location and I’ll look after them as well. But yet we do have team members, spread out, I reckon maybe 50% of those, yeah.

[00:23:32] Of the entire, business. Again, that’d be spread out across Victoria.

[00:23:37] Grant Williams: [00:23:37] And, and in both of the situations, would you have been considered in the senior management group? Like in the, in the top decision making team?

[00:23:49] Maribel: [00:23:49] Yes.

[00:23:49] Grant Williams: [00:23:49] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Marina, over to you. How, how was it difficult or how was it different for you to be working with someone who is [00:24:00] already an expert?

[00:24:02] Considered an expert in the field that they, moving around in.

[00:24:08] Marina Pitisano: [00:24:08] Well, I was very privileged to work with Maribel.  Because Maribel in many ways reminded me of myself of when I left HR. So when I left HR 12 years ago, I remember feeling quite lost around. I was able to help other people and guide them. But when you have to look at yourself and look at your own strengths and skills and capabilities, you can sometimes, play them down rather than play them up.

[00:24:35] And in some ways you don’t know how to play them up. So I really resonated with Maribel in many ways. I totally understood.  Why she needed, some external support? And, and I was, as I said, very privileged because as an expert in her field, she was, we were, she was able to be vulnerable with me and share her concerns and share, share her, areas that she wasn’t really.

[00:25:03] Good at, even though she does that for a living. For others, it’s all about how do we get the support for ourselves and because we both, we both come from that HR background and that HR industry, I was able to understand Maribel extremely well around what she does, and I was able to then define it and clarify it more carefully and drive it.  Because

[00:25:27] what Im experties  is, is [00:25:30] navigating the market externally to her own environment. And I remember when I left national Australia bank, I knew my environment extremely well. But I don’t know. I did not know the external market. So that was the similarity that Maribel and I had. Yes, she knows her,  she knows her organization, her environment extremely well.

[00:25:49] She had to network, move around. She would know exactly what to do. But once you go to the external market, you don’t have an idea of what jobs are available. How do I pitch myself for these jobs? What do I need to highlight? And I’ve worked with many other HR managers in a job search role, and I know what the people.

[00:26:07] Falls are around how to drive your key successes and achievements and areas of HR. So that’s what made us work really, really well together in the sense of, you know, sometimes I would draw on her own experience. So what questions are you asking your potential employees? And sometimes she would think, Oh, I’ve been asking this.

[00:26:26] So that was asked to view, what would you say? And what I was able to do is message those answers in such a way that, that she would, drive her best self in the interview and in the application,

[00:26:40] Grant Williams: [00:26:40] Maribel, that that’s a, a process that, Marina, well understood. Having worked with other HR, candidates before, what did you find the most.

[00:26:56] Difficult part of the process?. [00:27:00] And what did you learn about yourself that, that sort of surprised you as a result of changing, changing streams?

[00:27:12] Maribel: [00:27:12] To be honest, the part that I found most difficult was, Probably probably the lack of, and this is another issue altogether in terms of the market, the lack of really good part time roles in HR.

[00:27:27]I found that to be a bit of a roadblock.  Because when I was doing my research and to companies, and  what types of roles were available. I always seem to kind of fall upon the fact that they were full time.  And I’d actually still go for them. Because the, in some, for some, for some businesses, they are actually open to, flexible working arrangements.

[00:27:50]But as it turned out, for all the full time roles that I went for, they weren’t willing to, To change the role was full time. So I found that to be a bit of a road block. But also, you know, I, I don’t think strategy’s my strong suit. So, I, I found it hard to not kind of, I guess the term overshare too much at the start.  You know, cause I’m really an honest and transparent person.

[00:28:15] Just, that’s just in my nature. And so it was really helpful having Marina actually steer me out of that and go, no, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t kind of share that at the start. Maybe hold that off until first interview. And, and specifically we were [00:28:30] talking about the hours, in terms of doing four days versus five days for those roles.

[00:28:34]But also just dialing up what it is that they, want to know. You know, an interview wants to know that you’re capable of doing.  So,  I kind of have the, Unfortunately, I think, I think, I think I just talked too much about certain things that maybe aren’t relevant. so I really needed Marina to kind of steer me in that direction.

[00:28:50] Now just hone in on these particular, tasks of your role because that’s what they really want to know. you know, that you’re capable of doing. You know, the rest can come out later. But those were the two roadblocks, I think is the part time issue. And, really, I guess targeting.  What it is that they want to know about you, even though it might be lots of things that, that you could offer.

[00:29:15] Grant Williams: [00:29:15] So this is really for both of you mean if you can address it first, Maribel. How do you, how do you address, something where you, you know, you have a tendency to  as you said, overshare or just talk?. I was thinking maybe it could be filling space. How, how do you confront that and address it? And then Marina, could you take us through from a coach’s perspective. How, how you practically dealt with that Lucky’s it practice?

[00:29:46] Do you practice together.

[00:29:51] Maribel: [00:29:51] Yeah. Yes. Yeah. You definitely practice. I think the only way to learn how to do something is to actually do it. So, Marina and

[00:30:00] [00:29:59] Grant Williams: [00:29:59] Okey stopped doing 

[00:30:00] it

[00:30:00]

[00:30:00]Maribel: [00:30:00]

[00:30:00] yeah. Or stopped. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So there was, yeah, we went from the third. A lot of practice runs. but you know, preparing as well.

[00:30:10] I think, you know, if you actually write out what it is that you want to say and then come back to it and then practice it, I mean, that kind of helps reshape, how you respond when you’re in that situation.

[00:30:23] Marina Pitisano: [00:30:23] So for my perspective was that, As we, so when we get to the interview stage, That’s where I work with people like Maribel and everyone else to start to look at how do you prepare for these interviews.

[00:30:37] So the first thing I did,  was that I made Maribel aware that she gives a lot of information and maybe asks for the information too early on. So made her aware that we need to, so we need to start to be a lot more. CLIA and a lot more concise in the answers we need to provide. And so yeah. What I practice with my clients is that we create the scenarios that need to be shade in the interview.  And we need to highlight at least 10 very specific scenarios that she’s proud of and that she achieved in her current role that she could then deliver in that interview.

[00:31:18] So exactly what Maribel said, we actually write out all those scenarios and we practice them really thoroughly. And we do follow the star approach, which [00:31:30] Maribel as a recruiter provides to other potential employees. So the way we worked through it was that we created those scenarios using the situation, task, action result.

[00:31:42] And Maribel was just getting clearer and clearer about what would be the scenarios that she would talk about. But what was more important was what success did she achieve when she started to connect with the amount of success she had. She wrote a whole , she wrote a whole flexible working policy for her whole organization. Which has now been, it’s now been followed by the organization.

[00:32:08] She, she forgot about that. I remember I was at Maribel, that’s a big job that you did and you forgot about it. She said, Oh yeah, I just did that last year. And I said, well, you know, flexible working hour.  You know, making sure people could go out on full time. And, and she said, yeah, I forgot about that.

[00:32:24] Because we do forget we are in, we’re in the process of doing our job. We’ve got our heads down, bum up. We forget about what we’ve achieved. And by her bringing out all these scenarios, demonstrating all her achievements. Create and how she got to that point. So breaking it all down. She had very strong scenarios that she then took into those interviews and was able to really sell herself well.

[00:32:49] And for those people that don’t do that preparation and don’t do that work and don’t remind themselves of those achievements. There’ll be left behind, definitely. But Maribel was able to really [00:33:00] create absolutely clear case studies and scenarios that she was able to market and she’s really proud of them.

[00:33:07] And she was able to live with that in a really proud way that made them understand that Maribel has a lot to offer their organizations.

[00:33:16] Grant Williams: [00:33:16] Maribel, You mentioned, the, a roadblock was the  part time, lack of availability of, of positions in the part, part time, space, for want of a better word, but part time situations.

[00:33:31] You, you’ve written a policy for it. Of a very large organization, back, flexible working. How frustrating did you find it? When you were out there? Having worked, worked up a policy for a magic corporate entity, and then when you’re going out there, you’re finding that the kind of roles that you’ve just, theoretically made possible to exist in, in the organization you’re leaving.

[00:34:03] Aren’t out there in a whole lot of organizations that you were researching.  And I’m guessing they only had a head of public front saying how family-friendly Daya. how frustrating was it to find out that the reality. Wasn’t really, as it’s presented to the world.

[00:34:24] Maribel: [00:34:24] I was so disappointed. I actually couldn’t believe the [00:34:30] lack of, the lack of part time roles, but the lack of flexibility that some of these employers.  You know, just had, when you ask the question, you know, can I work this role part time?

[00:34:41]There was just no, no movement on that. So I found that extremely disappointing. I thought, you know, I started this process tip last year. So I thought, geez, in this day and age, I really would have thought, you know, that, employers kind of really change their way of thinking.  And it just kind of made me realize, and I don’t know if this is across Australia can only really speak about Victori. But yeah.

[00:35:04] I felt like we’re still really behind the eight ball in terms of flexible working arrangements. I think a lot of employers say they want to be because they know that the majority of good chunk of the workforce these days are working parents. And you know, in the modern day, like life is just so busy and it’s just kind of impossible sometimes for women to women in particular to, you know, be the mother and have their, you know

[00:35:35] have the time to look after their kids and have their careers. And other things as well is that there’s a lot of platforms. New platforms out there that are helping to support working parents. And you’ve read about all these stories about women who have had phenomenal careers. You know, at the real, you know, high levels, you know, people running their own.

[00:35:54] Companies or even, you know, directors and they’re able to work flexible. And I think, well, hang on. Why, why is [00:36:00] it if there are some people out there that have it? And there’s still a lot of employees that haven’t moved forward with that. They’re just stuck in one way of working. And the reality is, you know, there is not one way of working anymore.

[00:36:13] And I think, and I think that’s where we’re really falling behind. You know, and it’s an a shame, because I really do think that, working parents are just, they’re the most engaged people. Sometimes you can have in a workplace because they’re so time port, they just have to get their stuff done. So, you know, when I walk into work, I know I’ve got, currently working three days.

[00:36:33] I just have to get through all my staff. Because I know that, I’ve got three days to do it . And I’ve got other stuff I’ve got to do at home. There’s, I can’t, I can’t work at home when I’ve got my kids. So we’re just probably a bit more efficient in that respect.

[00:36:47]Grant Williams: [00:36:47] And  I’m thinking that working a three day role, there’s other people in the, in your work group who are reliant on you having done your work for them to do their

[00:36:59] Maribel: [00:36:59] work.

[00:37:00] Exactly. So that’s the part that odd, you know, I take that responsibility of knowing I just want to get through the tasks I need to do so that they are not left picking up the pieces. So I’ve got to be able to, to manage that. Yeah. Before

[00:37:16] Grant Williams: [00:37:16] we move on from the flexible work issue, Marina,

[00:37:22] Marina Pitisano: [00:37:22] I just, I just ha, I just wanted to say that,

[00:37:26] when I was working with Maribel and we discussed, [00:37:30] I mean, I am aware that the opportunities per time in the market are quite few. And I, and that was reinforced working with Maribel, and I understood that it was difficult to get these part time positions. But I think we need to highlight here that what’s interesting is getting in the door of these organizations.

[00:37:53] The opportunity of working part time is quite limited. Which is interesting because once you’re in the organization, there are heaps of opportunities to work part time. Isn’t that correct, Maribel? Because if you’re in the organization, if you’re in the organization, they promote flexibility. They promote.

[00:38:13] Opportunity to work part time from home, all these things. And that’s what Maribel was getting really confused.  Because she thought once you’re in the organization, the opportunities exist. But trying to get into organizations, the opportunities are extremely limited. And I think that is what organizations have to start to think about is why are we.

[00:38:35] Why are we stopping that from the beginning? Why are opportunities, flexible opportunities being opened up for people to enter into the organization and a part time opportunity. Rather than waiting for people to get in doors as full time and then giving them the choice. And I even was quite surprised at how little there is considering.

[00:38:58] Every employer talks [00:39:00] about we provide you flexible options. So I think organizations now need to really think about opening the opportunities from a pattern perspective rather than just waiting for people to come in full time and then be given the opportunities once they’re in the doors. I think that’s something that organizations need to start thinking about and really driving a lot better.

[00:39:22] Grant Williams: [00:39:22] Maribel, is that, does that situation arise, do you think, cause you came out of a, an employer of 11,000 people is, is that because the front door of the hiring process,  is disconnected from the, from the sort of internal hallway doors or corridor doors, of the management of staff once, once they’re, there.  Are the people making the decisions to take people on for roles.

[00:39:51]not the same people who are making decisions about chopping up positions and responsibilities and allocation of resources.

[00:40:04] Maribel: [00:40:04] I think, look, the employee that I came from, I think that really dependent on the, that dependent on the manager who was recruiting for the role with some managers who was actual, who were actually, you know, open to the idea of flexible working arrangements.

[00:40:21]And then there were other managers that, just, you know, weren’t like they’d all, they’d had to success with full timers and just couldn’t think to [00:40:30] themselves.  This role can actually work on a part time level. How can we re reorganize the work so that it works for this person because I think they’re a real gun and they could really add value to the company that I actually think it depends on the hiring manager.

[00:40:46]And whether or not they’re open to it and have that adaptability of how can we make it work so that a part timer can actually, do the job as well. Because that’s the thing these days is that, you know, you can list on a piece of paper what your hard skills are. The soft skills, I think is a lot harder to.

[00:41:07] Tapping into, you can’t, you don’t say that on paper. So when you’re recruiting, I mean that interview process really, you’ve got to dive deep and say whether or not their values align with the organization. And, it is a shame to kind of sign or to PayPal because they can’t do X amount of hours. But their values may align.

[00:41:26] So it’s just, yeah, it’s lost. It’s a lost resource.

[00:41:30] Grant Williams: [00:41:30] Marina, what’s your perspective on a broader scale about why that conflict arises?

[00:41:39] Marina Pitisano: [00:41:39] I think it’s exactly what Maribel says. I think. People can get stuck in the way they do things in the sense of we work. These jobs are full time, so therefore we’re going to look for full time employees.

[00:41:51] And they don’t realize that it can, they can craft the jobs in different ways to create more opportunities. And it’s [00:42:00] really the people that are willing, the people is that are willing to look at change people. It is that are willing to take risks. People, leaders that are willing to align their employees.

[00:42:09] But with for the right reasons like values and capabilities, rather than, yep, you’re the best full time person for this job. You know, it’s really those people that are able to, create change, is where we’re going to be able to see change in the, in the organizations.

[00:42:28] Grant Williams: [00:42:28] Maribel, you’ll change your reason for making the decision to change came about.

[00:42:36] As a result of a Changed  situation in the workplace. When you were away on maternity life.  What, what would you say? Anybody who is returning to work from maternity or parental life, and funds that, that the workplace might have changed in the period that had been a Y. What would you say to them about preparing to come back to work?

[00:43:07]Maribel: [00:43:07] I would say, definitely try and connect with your employer before you return. And I would really think about, I guess in terms of your integration back into that team. Try and get out of them some kind of plan to kind of help them assimilate back into that workplace and get the, their [00:43:30] expectations up front.

[00:43:31] I think that’s the part that I, I don’t know if it would have turned out differently. I kind of think it wouldn’t have, But, the bit that I struggled with when I returned was I didn’t know what the expectations were this new  person just didn’t make that clear from the start. And so as I did my job, as I normally do it, that’s where the conflict kind of started to arise because, you know, it was a different view of what was expected, but that was never communicated to me.

[00:43:58]So I would probably try and do that. But, at the same time, I think you have to realize it. That is also the role of the manager. They have to ensure that when you come back from maternity leave. That you have that support. I personally think that’s just an essential, and you really shouldn’t have to push, to get that from employers.

[00:44:18] They should be doing that for you.  Because returning from maternity leave is difficult for some people. You know, not everyone has an angelic child that sleeps through the night. you know, if you’re not sleeping, you know, it just interferes with so many ordinary functions of your day. So, but. also you automatically, even if you’re not aware, your confidence is, a little bit level when you do return because you’re now having to do this juggle of art.

[00:44:44] Now I have this child that I have to look after 24, seven, plus. I have to go back and be the person I was before I had the child. So. That’s a juggle and some people struggle with it more than more than others.  But my, what I really [00:45:00] think people need to remember is that, you know, you should never be made to feel undervalued when you come back to work after having a baby.

[00:45:08] That’s really, that’s really not the right way. And if your employee is going to do that, definitely stand up for yourself and say something. And if you don’t think that it’s going to change and that they’re not going to support you. Then you know, you should think about going else where and don’t think you can’t do it just because you’ve come back to work after having a baby.

[00:45:26] Yes, you can. You can. Absolutely.

[00:45:31] Grant Williams: [00:45:31] Marina, is this a common situation where people come back from, an extended period of leave and find that the organization has. Has moved on  and that, I, I don’t want this to sound sort of insulting or insensitive, But do people come back, after a period of lave and perhaps have a nostalgic view.

[00:45:59] Of, of what the workplace was, was, Because there’d been a, and by missing it and by missing the interaction with all their work, my two might be friends and then they come in and, and everything, the workplace has moved on.

[00:46:15] Marina Pitisano: [00:46:15] Well,  I think it’s nostalgic. I think what happens is women or men. Because men can have paternity leave come back into a workplace where it has moved on and therefore [00:46:30] you’re trying to adjust to a new, or you’re trying to adjust with all the changes.

[00:46:35] But you’ve changed,  because now you need a better work life balance. Because once upon a time, you might’ve been able to work back till midnight. Like some people or two really late or come in early.  And now you have to do your job within a certain amount of days.  Because you’ve now got someone that’s very precious at home to look after.

[00:46:56] So you can’t give or provide, the amount of work that you, you know, you can’t extend your hours. You have to do that period of time. And I think organizations need to support. People coming back into the work port workforce understand, really provide that work life balance for them. Help them, you know, have programs.

[00:47:22] Like Maribel’s had, and I know NAB had, which was engaged with the people that are maternity leave way before they come back and let them know about the changes that the know about this change of structure, the change of responsibilities, the change of culture or values that now people need to abide or work by.

[00:47:43] So therefore, when you come back into the workplace, you’ve already. Known about those changes and you can work in, you could work in quite nicely. But I do think the individuals that come back, they’ve changed a lot more. They’re not nostalgic. They’re coming back saying, I want to work. I’m [00:48:00] going to provide you my a hundred percent but I can only give it to you in those amount of days that we’ve agreed on.

[00:48:05] The rest of the time, I’m doing something else, which is just as important or even more important. So it’s really about,  collaborating with the leaders, understanding, you know, the, the responsibilities of the employee and what’s respected and accepted and being able to negotiate and do that really well.

[00:48:26] And I think what Maribel was saying is that,  sometimes if the transition is difficult.  If the, If the responsibilities are not clearly outlined, if the expectations aren’t clearly highlighted and the fact that she’s changed as an individual of what she can provide. If you’re telling someone that they’re going to be part time, you need to work with them on a part time basis.

[00:48:50] You know, you need to respect that about that employee, not ask them to drive a full time job in a part time opportunity. So it’s. It’s, it’s a responsibility on both parties to make sure that they’re going in wide open and the employers are helping them transition. Well.

[00:49:07] Grant Williams: [00:49:07] And don’t send that every day.

[00:49:12] Maribel: [00:49:12] Yeah,

[00:49:14] Marina Pitisano: [00:49:14] exactly. I mean, that kinda, you know, and it’s getting harder and harder.  Because you know, employers, employees are working longer and longer, and you know, the demands are higher and higher. However, you know, things change and you’ve got to find a balance somewhere [00:49:30] between what people, what the expectations are and what people can really deliver.

[00:49:34] Maribel: [00:49:34] Yeah. But I also think as well, a lot of companies, a lot of employers still hold that really old view that what success looks like is how many hours, how, you know, how long do you work? It’s not necessarily if you’re efficient and really productive in the time that you are working, you can still achieve the same things.

[00:49:57] It’s not that you do 10 hours a day. You know., That’s not what success necessarily looks like,

[00:50:04] Grant Williams: [00:50:04] and that doesn’t include other metrics, like how many people are taking stress leave or how many people have guilt for 10 years. So the metrics are stupid.

[00:50:16] Maribel: [00:50:16] yeah. Maribel,

[00:50:18] Grant Williams: [00:50:18] to sum up your experience, what did you learn and what could you, pass on as perhaps an inside tip for anyone facing your situation and thinking about working with some unlocked Marina .

[00:50:37] Maribel: [00:50:37] Definitely. Sake sake, that external suppor. I found that really helpful. Even though,  I actually had a really strong, highchair network. So, you know, I’m in contact with a lot of previous colleagues in the highchair field.  Who have gone on to be very successful. And so I had that, with me all along.

[00:50:57] But I think getting that external [00:51:00] support in particularly, someone like Marina who’s actually got that insight knowledge into the current market, I think that’s really helpful because the market continually evolves and changes. And I think that’s important to know what it is that your up against because then you,

[00:51:18]can really tailor your approach. When you’re looking for roles. But, you know, I really found Marina has helped so useful, and it was all over the phone. So, gentlemen, we didn’t even mate. So that’s how good it was. So, you know, there’s just a lot of, There’s a lot of information in this, the strategies that you, really instilled in me that, yeah, I’m probably gonna use now, you know, moving forward.

[00:51:44] But it’s also given me that, I guess confidence that, you know, for my next role, like, I don’t have to sit at the same company. I can, you know, my career can continually evolve and change and I can,  look up side. I think that’s the one thing, the one takeaway is it now I can look outside rather than, you know, what’s some, what’s just around me?

[00:52:06] Grant Williams: [00:52:06] Marina, you know, you know what time of the, of the session it is. It’s your top tips time.

[00:52:13] Marina Pitisano: [00:52:13] Well, I, I, I always love this part because we did the top tips and I listened to your story and I, you know, for me, it is reminiscent of our experience. What I, what I learned from working with Maribel. So I learned just as much from my clients [00:52:30] as I hope they learn from me.

[00:52:31] And you know, it was really important when working with Maribel that we really stressed that it’s a two way interview. You know, made sure that Maribel really stressed what she was looking for, what she needed and what environment, culture, leadership style she was going to about to go into.  Because she wasn’t going to make the same mistake.

[00:52:51] With working with someone similar to what she’s already working with. I did spend a lot of, Oh, I remember that night when Maribel called me and said, I’m going to leave her and I can’t cope with it anymore. I’ve got to go. I can’t do it. And I said, Maribel,  I want you to stay,  because if you think it’s tough now and you’re going to work, it’s going to be tougher when you’re not earning income, and I do not want you to get desperate and take anything.  Because you then will say to me, I haven’t got money coming in and I need to look after my family.

[00:53:25] You do not want to look for a job. With that desperation in mind. I was able to convince him to stay on. And that was really important. And even then months later, she said to me, I’m really pleased, Marina, that you convinced me to stay because I think I would have struggled trying to find a job and being out of work and having financial issues.

[00:53:45] So please, if you’re looking for a job while you’re in a job, stick to it. It’s the best and ideal situation. Really make a list of your, you know, make a list of your achievements, which Maribel. Make a real list and craft them [00:54:00] into really good answers because that way you got to show the best self of the best self to a future employer.

[00:54:08] And one thing that we did try, we did do a bit of cheating. Was that, we used to go for part rather than, we used to go for full time jobs. So how our strategy was, we’re going for every job and we’re going to then make sure that if we become the winner of that job, we’re going to negotiate some part time opportunities.

[00:54:28] And we did that on two on two roles. Remember, Maribel. The original roles that you got report. She was shortlisted for other roles and she spent some really valuable time saying to them. But I can only work part time. And there was one that was like really trying to negotiate with her, but they just couldn’t get it over the line, but they were willing to do anything.

[00:54:53] So if you become a successful candidate, you can negotiate salary. And I was of work. So that’s, that’s what, because that’s what Maribel was saying. I’m going to go in and say I want to work part time. And I’d say to her, no, no, no, no, no. We need to win the role. Once we won the role, we can negotiate, and we were able to do that.

[00:55:11] So Maribel,  Showed me as well, that that is, that is a strategy that,  people can use. It is a strategy that you can actually win a part time job if you are the successful candidate for that role. So they are the tips from Maribel’s experience.

[00:55:29] Grant Williams: [00:55:29] Don’t [00:55:30] move on until you’ve got somewhere to go to. Yep. Yes.

[00:55:36] Negotiate from a position of strength. You need to do renovation rather than build a whole new house. That’s really the way the Whitey guy now feedback’s always good, isn’t it? Whether you’re in, whether you’re in a role or even if you don’t, if you’re not the successful applicant, you would still like fade back, wouldn’t you?

[00:56:02] And it’s no different in the podcast world. Well, you block a review or two, that’d be really nice. Tell us how you think we’re doing. So you can do that on Apple podcasts or a pod chaser is another really good place to do that,  or have you got a comment section on your route website Marina.

[00:56:21] Marina Pitisano: [00:56:21] Yes. I can always leave, their feedback or comments on my website, www.letzcreate.com.au let’s with a z.com.au, as you always say, grant,

[00:56:33] Grant Williams: [00:56:33] you’re doing my work for me, Marina. That’s, that’s great because wherever available, everywhere, every way you can find podcasts, pretty much. You can find. Let’s create waking wake app here. We guy Maribel, it’s great that you got, I really,

[00:56:51] good outcome. And I can see, I’ve got the advantage that the listeners don’t have of, [00:57:00] say your big smile. It’s obvious it worked out and that’s really, really good.

[00:57:04] Maribel: [00:57:04] And

[00:57:06] Grant Williams: [00:57:06] I reckon your new workmates are probably really, really, really happy. And the old work mates probably going, wish Maribel was still here.

[00:57:16] Maribel: [00:57:16] Well, I wish them all the best, but yes, I’m really happy in terms of where I am. So I’m actually so excited. I never thought I’d be this excited. In a new role. I think, I thought I’d be more scared than anything, but I just, yeah, I think I’ve found my new home. Absolutely. Well, that’s

[00:57:34] Grant Williams: [00:57:34] what it’s all about, isn’t the Marina, and that’s why you do what you do.

[00:57:37] Yep. I got it. We’ve, we’ve come to the, the final curtain, as I say, so thanks for listening. Let’s create your career as Marina said, L E T Zed. LetzCreate.com.au, Ray chap, or, if you really sneaky, you can, you can, stalk Marina on LinkedIn if you really smart. So, Maribel, thanks so much for coming on board on Grant Williams.

[00:58:08] We’ll

[00:58:08] produce this thing. We’ll see you on the next episode.

[00:58:14] Marina Pitisano: [00:58:14] Thanks, Grant. Thanks Maribel. Bye everyone!

 

Read the Transcript

[00:00:00] Grant Williams: [00:00:00] 11 recording. There we are. Let’s create your career. The podcast on Grant Williams. Here we are still in a isolation, but it’s about. maybe be lifted is the good news. So that’s only a couple of weeks, so it might be a month away. So there’s an end in sight. I produce and ask the simple questions here.

[00:00:29] Every time we do this,  I’m joined by the greatest job search coach in Australia.  And I believe the English speaking world Marina Pitisano, how are you?

[00:00:44] Marina Pitisano: [00:00:44] I’m really well, Grant, you’re getting better and better at this all the time. I’m becoming a bigger and bigger coach now in Australia, so thank you for that beautiful introduction.

[00:00:56] I really appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Grant Williams: [00:00:58] And the English speaking world, but I’m not sure whether that includes America, because do they speak English?

[00:01:05] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:05] And I’m thinking,

[00:01:06] Grant Williams: [00:01:06] yeah, I’m not convinced. Marina, we do this to help people, navigate the journey of a career change or finding a job or,  leaving a job and finding another job or changing directions completely.

[00:01:27] And today we have another one of your [00:01:30] clients, former clients. And we’re, we’re moving beyond the expert tips and we’re going back to the story.

[00:01:40] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:40] That’s right, and today I’d love you all to meet Renaldo. Renaldo was made redundant. He’s a senior CFO, I’m chief financial officer or accounting manager and senior and Renaldo share.

[00:01:57] We’ll share with you his story of how, when he, what happened when he was made redundant, how he had to approach job search and you know, what was his, approach direction and how we work together to achieve a great result that, and he’ll share that with you around what he ended up achieving. So Ronaldo, welcome to, Letz Create Your Career podcast.

[00:02:21] Really happy to have you here.

[00:02:25] Renaldo: [00:02:25] Thanks  Marina and thank you Grant, and thank you for inviting me to the podcast. And if I can just say, before we kick off, I wasn’t actually made redundant. I just wanted to leave, leave the role, with some stuff that was going on in the background that, sorry, just to clear that up, I actually

[00:02:40] Marina Pitisano: [00:02:40] list, can we start it again?

[00:02:44] Grant Williams: [00:02:44] Sure we’ll, we’ll, we just get, you can just do your bit again and I’ll just edit out from there.

[00:02:53] Marina Pitisano: [00:02:53] So what was your role previous to that? Cause I can still remember say a five, but what was your role.

[00:03:02] [00:03:00] Renaldo: [00:03:02] I would see a fire finance manager, financial controller, director

[00:03:05] Marina Pitisano: [00:03:05] of all those roles. For previous,

[00:03:10] Renaldo: [00:03:10] I was the senior senior finance leader for a, an aged care promoter

[00:03:15] Marina Pitisano: [00:03:15] as senior finance

[00:03:19] Renaldo: [00:03:19] lead for a, an aged care disability services

[00:03:23] Marina Pitisano: [00:03:23] promoter. Yeah. Great. Alright, so I’ll start that again. So yes. Great. I’d like you to now meet Rinaldo,  Rinaldo actually was in a role that he decided to leave and went straight into job search.

[00:03:40]He was the senior finance leader in his previous role, but wasn’t satisfied in the longer, wanted to actually find something that was going to make his values be able to add a lot of value. And actually move on. So please say hello to Renaldo. Renaldo lovely, too. Lovely that you can join us today. So welcome.

[00:04:02] Renaldo: [00:04:02] Thanks for Marina. Thank you Grant, and thank you to both of you for having me on. Great.

[00:04:08]Grant Williams: [00:04:08] Renaldo it’s, it’s always a pleasure to, to hear how, somebody came into the Marina’s orbits, so you will. You were in a, well, let’s hide the most pretty much the musher sponsor will job. You can have. In an organization other than being the CFO, because [00:04:30] you’re, you’re responsible for doling out all the cash and for keeping control on who’s spending the cash as a CFO.

[00:04:38] CFO is a, an equivalent title, isn’t it? For for what you were doing?

[00:04:43]Renaldo: [00:04:43] Definitely. Definitely. For sure. I think with, with my role in particular and working in the not for profit space as well, there’s a degree of, Senior business leadership and strategic leadership that you’re showing the role. But a lot of the time when you’re working in the not for profit space, you’re also doing a lot of hands on work as well.

[00:05:01] So, from my point of view, the role was becoming a bit, what’s the, what’s the word I was getting? I was becoming a bit stagnant in the role and I was just feeling like I wasn’t developing where I wanted to go with the role. And, so I decided to take the risk and actually leave my position. And look at and explore for new opportunities.

[00:05:21] Grant Williams: [00:05:21] So did you, did you decide to take the risk and, and and actually leave before you had any other idea of what. What you could step into. And had you, had you finished your employment before you contacted Marina?

[00:05:42]Renaldo: [00:05:42] Yeah, I definitely finished my employment before I contacted Marina. So yeah, I was getting a bit frustrated and a bit, lost in myself in terms of the role that I had been doing.

[00:05:51] And I just felt like it was time to move out, step back and, and try and assess where I want it to go with, with my skills and my experience. [00:06:00] And so therefore the I, yeah, I took the risks, I would say the say, or made the decision to leave the role that I had, which was quite a senior role. And certainly, in terms of payer remuneration was, it was quite cold as well.

[00:06:13]but then I decided to leave. It took some time off and the searching for a role in the job market without any support. And I did start to find that, I probably felt like I knew myself, what I could bring to the table. What I probably needed the help of someone who was an experienced person who could, give me the help and advice and the guidance to, to really help bring my skills and my experience and more and more say, my presentation skills.

[00:06:40] So the table went on. It wasn’t, in the first systems trying to get my CV across, applying for roles, but then also when meeting with organizations as well. So I knew what I could bring or I just needed someone to help me, better align my, my skill search with the jobs, but also better align my presentation.

[00:06:58] As well to make sure that potential organizations could see what I can bring to the table. And that was the number one reason why I apply. I’m forced out someone like Marina.

[00:07:07]Grant Williams: [00:07:07] Well, we know that Marina is excellent at doing all of those things and we’ll, we’ll find out how that happened with you. But, before we, we get there, how long did it take you?

[00:07:19]well, let, let’s look at it to us. Did you work out, did you work off like a period of notice with you? Previous employer and, and. And then [00:07:30] go straight into maybe four weeks of having a holiday or something like that. How long did it take you from leaving your employer to contacting Marina, but also did you work out, work out a standard period of notice?

[00:07:48] Renaldo: [00:07:48] Yeah, so I definitely worked at a period of, of dynamism, and then this sort of, yeah, take some time off. And then I approached Marina to help me out with, How are putting to play a process to find a new role.

[00:08:01] Marina Pitisano: [00:08:01] So what was interesting about Renaldo Grant was that he actually left his job. He left his job because he wanted to move on.

[00:08:08] So he reached out to me after he was, he had never guided the market, and yet, done some job searching and was a thing to a certain level struggling with that. He wasn’t, you weren’t long on job search where you were an elder before you came to me. yeah. So he only was out for a couple of weeks, but he actually left and what I find, so Renaldo why did you choose to leave.

[00:08:34] So it’d be nice for the listeners to hear, cause a lot of people go through this, which is do I leave and go and find a job or should I find a job while I’m in a current job? Why did you choose to leave and then look for a job? What, what was, what was the rationale behind that?

[00:08:52] Renaldo: [00:08:52] Well, there was obviously some stuff going on at work as well.

[00:08:56] I was in the leadership team into a new [00:09:00] CEO had arrived with as well. Not long. before as well. And he certainly had, a new way of going about it as well. And so I just felt like at times, my, my values and what I thought I could bring to the table weren’t being used to the best advantage of the organization.

[00:09:15] And, I just, after maybe a couple of discussions with the CEO, I just felt like that my, the use of what I could bring wasn’t probably being sourced in the best possible way from my point of view. So I felt like, well, you know what? It’s probably a good time to sort of move on and look for a new opportunity.

[00:09:34]I spoke to the, to the CEO. He had some planes as well in, in the next, in the new year about what he wanted to do with, with some of the changes at the organization as well. And I felt like I didn’t fit in with, we’re always looking to do as well. So I felt like, well, you know what? It’s probably a good time to leave.

[00:09:51] Take some time off. I think the important thing was to have some time off as well. So just refresh it. Understand what it is I’m looking for. Cause when you’ve been looking, sorry, when you’ve been doing a role for a long time, as I had been for 13 years in leaders in, in senior leadership roles, especially in finance, we can become a bit, stagnant or a bit, not complacent, but a bit, gold in terms of some of the things that are going on.

[00:10:14] You’re looking for new challenges you’re looking for to make a difference. And certainly I felt like, I wasn’t getting what I wanted to, to make the role, more appealing to what I’ve done in the past. So I thought, now I’m going to take some time off, step back, have a bit of a time, have a bit of a break.

[00:10:29] And then I [00:10:30] started to look for new roles. And certainly the thing I learned from, when I made the decision is that I knew beforehand that the Christmas period probably wouldn’t be a great time to start looking for a new role. But certainly, Making the decision to to leave, take some time off, and then start looking in the new year.

[00:10:47]It was a quiet time of the year, so that’s sort of added to the, to the frustration of the prices of trying to find a new role quickly. But yeah, so from my point of view, it was a matter of, well, let’s now start looking for a new job. It wasn’t working as well as I would have liked. I did feel like I probably wasn’t doing some things very well.

[00:11:05] Certainly when you’ve been doing jobs for a long time and haven’t been actively looking for a position. You’re probably not as, understanding of what it takes to get a new role or even to get an interview first. And that was some of the reason why I contacted, Marina, because obviously the way I, the way I used it was the fact that when you’re working, you outsource things that you don’t do very well, and you pay professionals to bring that value to the organization.

[00:11:32] So the perspective I had was that, why not engage someone who does this for a living? We actively tries to find people or help people find a job. So you, someone who’s a professional in that environment. So basically I was outsourcing that part of the process and that’s how I thought about, getting Marina on board to help me with that.

[00:11:50] First of all, getting my CV into a position where I felt that it would highlight my skills and my experience, but then also align me with the roles that I was [00:12:00] looking for. And then once I got an interview helped with the process of actually making sure that during the interview I was well prepared.  And making sure that I could make the potential employers see where the value was in, in my experience, in my capacity in that.

[00:12:15] That all led to my relationship with Marina and helping me actively look for new jobs and finally, in the end, secure a new role.

[00:12:26]Grant Williams: [00:12:26] With. You didn’t have any, a conflict going on with the, with the new CEO, by the sound of it. It just was a diverging pathway. They were, you needed a change. There was change coming whether you locked it or not.

[00:12:43] And, it was just an opportunity, yet

[00:12:47] Renaldo: [00:12:47] There was no conflict. There was just a, you know, that happens all the time and you say, y’all will come on board and he’ll rearrange it. The leadership team, he’ll restructure, he’ll focus on particular areas of the organization. And, and certainly he wanted to go in a direction that I felt was probably not to the best direction of the organization.

[00:13:04] So at times we had robust discussions about revenue and income streams that I felt were, were being neglected, and therefore we decided to, as I said, he was having a one direction. I had another. I just felt like it probably wasn’t gonna help me in terms of my professional development. So I thought, well, it’s better for me to maybe look at new opportunities and see what else is out in the market.

[00:13:26] Grant Williams: [00:13:26] So

[00:13:26] what,

[00:13:27] sorry, Marina, just before you, you [00:13:30] take over the, the, the next step on the journey. All I wanted to be sure of renown. I was, when you, when you had the, had the bright, did you feel really re charged and fresh ready to take it on? Or did you have a period of, sort of frustration building because of the not, not securing the interview.

[00:13:55] Renaldo: [00:13:55] Oh, look, I wouldn’t say I felt refreshed and recharged, I think. I think when you’re. Ideally, I would suggest to people out there that you don’t look, you don’t leave a role without having a role to go to. Ideally in a perfect world, you’d secure a new role and then give notice and leave. But with my circumstances, I just was getting a bit frustrated with myself and, I wasn’t enjoying the role and I felt like, we know what I’m going to take this research.

[00:14:18] I’d never done it before. I’d never been without a job. And so, I decided, well, you know what, let’s take the risk and have some time off. And I looked at it as been my long service cause I’d been working for, consistently since 1994. And so from my point of view was actually, I’m going to take my long service leave.

[00:14:37] That’s how I looked at it. But, but when you were looking for a role and you don’t have a position of work, it can be like a roller coaster. There’s days that you’re having some good days, you’re getting good feedback. You’re getting phone calls for positions and things like that. Then there’s some days when you’re not getting feedback at all.

[00:14:53] You’re getting a bit frustrated with some of the stuff you’re hearing from potential employers or you’re talking to agencies and, and sometimes [00:15:00] they’re telling you things that you don’t want to hear as well. So it is quite a roller coaster ride. So certainly I didn’t feel like I was refreshed and recharged, but I was up for the challenge and certainly, when I did have a, an afternoon that didn’t go my way, I did make sure that.

[00:15:13] I stepped away, took some time off then, and then make sure when I got up in the morning, the next day, I was, clear in terms of my thoughts, got straight back in front of the laptop again and actively started doing what I had to do again. So I certainly didn’t dwell on any negativity, but you do have negativity.

[00:15:29] I’m not going to deny that. And it is a roller coaster ride, but you’ve got to make sure that you pick yourself up and focus on the end game and get on with it.

[00:15:37] Marina Pitisano: [00:15:37] So Renaldo, before you reached out to me, what would you say was, what was, what was really frustrating you about the whole job search? I mean, you had been in a job for a long time.

[00:15:51] You know, you made a big decision to leave. You knew you had a lot to offer a new in a new employer. Because I know that when you, the amount of projects you did, the capabilities and skills that you have a really top notch.  But what was frustrating you when you started your job search? What was really annoying you?

[00:16:15] What was getting you, I know you mentioned a few things, but what do you think was the main area that was frustrating you before you came to meet me and you were doing on your own? What was really frustrating you.

[00:16:28]Renaldo: [00:16:28] Well, probably a few things. The [00:16:30] first thing that was frustrating me was the lack of temporary opportunities, I think.

[00:16:34] I think it was the time of the year, certainly over the Christmas, new year period. It’s a very quiet time in finance. And so I was looking to try and pick up a temporary role and get back to work as quickly as possible, from the point of view of just having something to do every day. So I was getting frustrated that those opportunities didn’t exist.

[00:16:49]I was probably getting a bit frustrated with the fact that there was just,  So many permanent roles that were being advertised. And that I was applying for and then just, I wasn’t hearing back nothing at all. So, it’s, it’s very disconcerting when, and when you were applying for a position, you’ve got to customize your, your cover letter.

[00:17:08] You got to customize your CV. It takes, it takes quarter, maybe a couple of days to get the whole application together and then to send it off for a row. And then basically that’s it. You don’t hear anything ever again. I, it does get frustrating cause you’re spending all that time and you’re, you’re getting your head around understanding.

[00:17:25] If I was to work in that particular environment, what it would mean. They’ve mentioned about corner employees, they’ve mentioned where it, where it’s situated. I’ve mentioned the, the team that you’d probably be leading. So you’re starting to get these things going in your head and you’re, you’re trying to understand, can I, can I deal with that?

[00:17:42] And so, and at the same time you’re putting the application together as well. And then when it goes off and then you don’t hear anything. You think, well, it’s all just a waste of time and say it can, it can play tricks with you, but you start to think, well, what’s, what’s the whole point?. And in some jobs you’re, you’re seeing, a really good opportunities and you’re thinking, I really want this position.

[00:18:00] [00:18:00] So you’re really taking the time to, to get your cover letter sorted out and your application and make sure you hit the Mark. And then again, you’re not hearing anything. So again, you’re thinking, well, you know, that you’re competing against maybe 150 200 applicants. So you start to think, well, he’s worth, is it even worth the effort?

[00:18:17] So it is, it is hardest to try and stand outside. These are, these are some of the things that again, lead me to engaging someone like Marina because I felt like I needed to bring somebody in that could give me some insights into the process and some, some real competitive advantage in terms of how I go about it.

[00:18:36] And that again, led me to, to reaching out to Marina.

[00:18:40] Grant Williams: [00:18:40] So what were you working with Marina? Was it a diamond in the rough? Was it I,  and, and, and how, how ready for the, the job search process did you find? Renaldo, because, lucky side it was. Straight out, straight out of one cupboard, and then into another one.

[00:19:04] Marina Pitisano: [00:19:04] I loved working with Renaldo. Because Renaldo is one of those people which you can hear is extremely passionate about what he does. He works for not-for-profit and he throws himself into everything, so he is a TA. He. He is a senior manager. He has really strong values. He really believes in what he does.

[00:19:26] He really provides great, a great [00:19:30] service to the organization as a financial accountant, as a CFO. So he has all that package to offer, but it’s all to do. And this is, what I always incur. This is the sixth this is where I see success is when the actual candidate or the client that I’m working with is really passionate and driven and wants to learn and wants to accept and adopt what needs to be done to achieve success.

[00:19:57] And that is what was really important working with Renaldo. And it was more about, I don’t know what I need to do. I am slightly confused about how I present myself in my resume. How do I present myself in my cover letter? And when I get in front of those individuals, I have a lot to offer, but how do I present myself effectively to be able to get over the line?

[00:20:21] And that’s what’s really good about. Renaldo is that he’s willing to take on any feedback, any improvement, and really drive that to achieve success. So, so for you, Renaldo would, you mentioned that you outsource, when you outsource something, you have expectations that that person or is going to, meet certain requirements.

[00:20:48] So when you thought about using a career coach like me, what were your expectations? What did you expect?

[00:20:57] Renaldo: [00:20:57] Well, I ran out before I expected [00:21:00] anything. But what I, what I was looking for was, was, was some, some extra insights. So the whole reason why, I outsourced or certainly approached Marina is I felt like that.

[00:21:12] A person like Marina is dealing with a lot of, a lot of clients. So a lot of clients who come from all different, industries and different professional backgrounds. So I definitely felt like Marina would have the experience in terms of being able to provide me with, the guidance and the help to make sure that, I can stand out, first of all, in terms of my application.

[00:21:34] Because as I mentioned before, you’re probably applying for a role that is 150 people that are applying for the role as well. So it was all about how I, how I made my application stand out to, first of all, get an interview. But then it was also, again, I was expecting or hoping that Marina could give me.

[00:21:50] The help and the gardens in terms of how I can present myself during an interview to shine and to show the potential employer what it is I can, I can bring to the table. So rather than worrying about stumbling in and having some issues around answering a question that I might not be prepared for, certainly she helped me with understanding how, I think it’s, if you normally goes around.

[00:22:14] What are the most expected questions that will usually come through? And even those questions that you might not be expecting, these are some of the strategies that you can, you can use to actually help answer the question. So it doesn’t actually become about, ticking off the questions in terms of it, in terms of answering [00:22:30] the questions, but around how I can present myself in a way that I am answering the questions, but I’m also answering the questions in a way that’s really bringing what personality out it’s bringing my experience.

[00:22:40] I’m able to really,  A  lawn, white experience and any kind of situations that they’re asking me about and really help with me explaining in the, addressing the question in the best possible way so that when that part of the presentation is over, the potential employee can see a yes, he has the experience and the skills.

[00:23:01] But also this guy, I would think would be a great asset to the organization. He has the personality fit these, he could fit into the culture well. So it was, it really was around here. Could I understand myself better by engaging someone like Marina, to make sure that when I’m in the interview process.  That I’m able to just shine through that particular 30, 40, 50 minutes of interview.

[00:23:23]And also at the same time, help me understand the role better and make sure that I’m doing myself,  the best possible service as well. Because, when you are looking for a role, you start to fall into a position where I’ll just take anything. And I, and a few times I actually went for roles where I was probably overqualified for.

[00:23:40] And, I just wanted to get a role because I just want to look, I didn’t want to be home. I’m still looking for a role. And, but talking to Marina, she made me understand that it’s not about that. You’ve gotta you gotta really understand who you are, what you’re looking for. Step back, take the time, really understand what the position is that you’re looking for in your next role and [00:24:00] go for it rather than, discounting yourself and not maybe believing in yourself.

[00:24:04] It was more around understanding who you are, what you’ve achieved. Really understanding what you’ve achieved and what you can bring to the table and focus on that and then apply for the roles that you think will stretch you. You can bring some value, we’ll help you in terms of your development for the next maybe three to five years.

[00:24:21] So really raising the bar and in certainly I felt the whole time that was with Marina, I had someone sort of, I wasn’t going through the journey alone. I was, I had someone to help me out and whenever I did feel like I was a bit maybe doubtful or uncomfortable or not quite sure, explaining it to someone like Marina and gaining through the process with, with, with her.  I did feel like I had someone watching my back and really helping me with going to the next level and making sure that.

[00:24:49] His role was I was putting myself in the best possible position to it to achieve success.

[00:24:54] Grant Williams: [00:24:54] So, Marina, what, what did you have to do? Was the resume in order was, or, or was it only a matter of, interview prep, preparation and coaching?

[00:25:08] Marina Pitisano: [00:25:08] No, I don’t know. Renaldo,  Renaldo had a great resume, however, it needed to be tweaked for the types of roles that he was going for.

[00:25:15] It needed to have a little bit more definition in the resume, so therefore he could stand out. I think we did a lot of work, and you can tell me Renaldo. We did a lot of work on really expanding his cover letters and making [00:25:30] sure that he’s covered letter, was highlighting the best stories that would really meet the case selection criteria.

[00:25:37] It was really about driving that cover letter and putting in the, the, the criteria that they were looking for. So we were defining what they wanted and defining Renaldo’s stories and making sure they matched a lot better. And also, when it came to the interviews at Renaldo had quite a few interviews.

[00:25:59] It was not only the interview questions that Renaldo needed to deal with. Creating the best scenarios. For those interviews, but he also had to do a presentation, which is what he mentioned at the beginning of the interview, was that he had to put forward a presentation and we worked through that presentation.

[00:26:19] And what I was able to provide for him is some feedback around. The way he should view the presentation. So we were, I was giving him different angles that he needed to think about that he would then enhance his presentation. And that helped him really put forward, a really strong,  proposal and business case.

[00:26:40] When he went in for that presentation, he was, he was quite stretched. And when you are going for these senior roles, you are given either a business presentation, you’re given a case study that you then have to provide back answers. All you have to [00:27:00] present to a case study. So there’s a lot more involved for more senior people on how they need to prepare for those interviews.

[00:27:08] And I’ve had held quite a few clients in making sure that what they’re presenting back, either as a case study or as a presentation. They’re looking at all different, or looking at. From very different angles and making sure we cover all those angles and then achieving success. So that’s what I, that’s how I support it.

[00:27:30] Renaldo through his application and his interview process

[00:27:35] Grant Williams: [00:27:35] Renaldo, was it a non, the nonprofit sector that you were, looking, looking at only or were you really seeking, roles  in the CFO space? A in any industry sector?

[00:27:53]Renaldo: [00:27:53] No, no. I was definitely looking for, I was definitely looking to continue my, my experience in a not for profit sector.

[00:28:01] I’ve worked in not for profit and most of my adult senior life, and I certainly, I said to Marina when we first started working together. I’ve got a lot of experience in that sector. I understand how it works. Not just from a funding point of view, but certainly from a cultural values, in terms of work ethic, all that kind of thing.

[00:28:18] So I definitely wanted to stay in the not for profit space and therefore, and I, and I ended up getting a role in a nonprofit organization. So, yeah, I, I, Marina initially suggested [00:28:30] maybe I open it up to a more commercial environment, But I said to her, no, that was definitely one area that I did. I didn’t feel like I needed to move away from, I knew that from a job fit, a job fit, process.

[00:28:42] And certainly where I wanted to see myself moving forward. I wanted to stay in the not for profit space and therefore I focused all my applications. On roles that were in that area.

[00:28:52] Marina Pitisano: [00:28:52] So grant, when I first start with my client, any client that works with me is we work through what do they want in the market.

[00:29:00] So we go through a journey of understanding, you know, what specifically do they want? I have to narrow that. Down and sometimes it could be a variety of roles or sometimes it won’t be one specific role. That’s really critical to achieving job success.  Because I need to understand the and working with the client.

[00:29:21] They need to understand this is what I’m looking for. In Renaldo’s case, he really wanted the CFO or senior finance manager in a not-for-profit. He came from that background. He loved that background and wanted to pursue a career in that background. So that is a piece of work that we first do with our clients, is understand very clearly what are they looking for, because that then drives the whole job search process.

[00:29:48] Job search process to its entirety because at least we know where we’re going, where we’re heading, and what and how do we tailor the tools to achieve that success.

[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Grant Williams: [00:30:00] Renaldo, leaving at Christmas time, that that sets a be a real challenge. As you say, people industry sort of shuts down in it a lot of cases for.

[00:30:13] Sort of the four weeks of, of January, and then I would have thought it was going to be even more difficult if you’re limiting yourself, to, to the sector where you obviously have had the skills and, and a real feel for. So is this is really to you, Marina, is some, is the not, not for profit sector at that.

[00:30:38] Level, hiring often. Are there a lot of that?

[00:30:44] Marina Pitisano: [00:30:44] Well, we’re now there will know Rinaldo is in the industry. So do you feel not for profit is hiring a lot of people.

[00:30:52] Renaldo: [00:30:52] Well, yes and no. Certainly. the last couple of organizations I’ve worked for over the last five years, I’ve gone through transformation periods.

[00:31:01] So certainly not for profit is going through a process where, and, and again, talking to a lot of agencies while I was looking for a new role and this, this came up a lot. a lot of these not for profit organizations have had staff working there for a long time. They’ve got old legacy software systems.

[00:31:17] They’ve got maybe six,  up to 10 15 different lines of business that are all programs that are running inside. They’ve been sort of working off these old processes and systems for a long time. So a lot [00:31:30] of them over the last, or from what my experience had in the last five years in particular, is they’re all going through transformation there.

[00:31:36] They’re upgrading their software systems, in particular, their CMS. They’re trying to get people in that have got more of a, certainly a commercial understanding, in terms of their background or how they can bring more value into an organization and try and take advantage of their particular strengths.

[00:31:51] As well. So, so a lot of not for profits are going through transformation and therefore they are hiring and looking to get, a better credentialed people into the organization from, from the point of trying to bring in something a bit different, into the organization. So, and that’s where I feel like, that’s why I wanted to stay in the not for profit space because I have done some quite a bit of work in that transformation process.

[00:32:15] I did feel like whatever profit I can go into. Because of the experience I had, I’d be able to bring in some different insights and maybe some, some, some change that would probably help with the buffer profit in terms of growing and transforming. But in terms of, taking on staff, look, some at, some are going through that process and they are, and some, some aren’t.

[00:32:36] But from the point of view of, of leaving a role at Christmas time and then try to find a new role there, it probably wasn’t a great time of the year to do that. But sometimes you just gotta do it. Sometimes you just have to do what you gotta do and you gotta take the risk. And, I gotta get off your bum and really take the, the, the challenge in an endeavor to try and find what it is you’re looking for that.

[00:32:54] Cause if I hadn’t done that, the role that I’m doing now, which is an awesome role, I, I wouldn’t have found it. [00:33:00] So, and I wouldn’t have met, I wouldn’t have met Marina as well. So yeah, you’ve got to, you’ve got to take those risks at times and just go for it.

[00:33:08]Grant Williams: [00:33:08] Renaldo,  what, what did you have to change, about yourself?. And what surprised you most about the, the process of, of going for a new week, a new position.

[00:33:26]Renaldo: [00:33:26] look, I don’t know if I changed much about myself. But what I think I did was you have to take the time to know who you are. I did, I did,  I saw another lady as well that helped me do a, an analysis of my, my values. So, and that’s how, I was able to find Marina because whilst I did this psychiatric, assessment of my values and my, my behavior, that was just a one soft test and that was not going to really well.

[00:33:54] So it’s going to make me more self-aware. It wasn’t gonna really help me with the job search process.  And that  and that’s how I came to form Marina. But, but that process there was able to give me some information about how I communicate, how I behave, more of my emotional intelligence and things like that.

[00:34:09] So I was able to understand, a lot more about how I am as a, as a professional and how I need to operate to make sure that I’m giving white team the best possible opportunity. But also, when I’m reporting and working for an organization, how I can bring, myself or the best, best version of myself to the table as well.

[00:34:28] So, and these were some of the things I [00:34:30] started to talk to Marina about it, about more communication style about my, my values, about how I, I like to work with my team or, or work for a CEO and working for a CEO in particular. So again, Marina and I had a lot of discussion about.  What, what my values were and how I needed to behave at time is when, when things were coming up about things that were either a challenge or, or whether there was a robust conversation about something that I believed in or was in contradiction to the leadership team.  About how we handle different scenarios and the, and what I should be doing.

[00:35:00] And then she’d come back and give me feedback about what she thought. And throughout that process then I was able to understand better. About how we should go about it. And that I think helped me develop my presentation skills and helped me develop, certainly during interviews. How I could bring myself to present my values and what skills in the best possible light.

[00:35:22] So certainly it was more, the whole process made me understand. Yes, it’s just how I need to go about it.

[00:35:29] Marina Pitisano: [00:35:29] So grant, I’m fortunate enough to be accredited in the advanced, in a metrics tool that Rinaldo is talking about. So him being able to present that to me around and that tool measures, values.

[00:35:45] So what does he value? It also measures how he communicates and behaves, and also personal attributes. So I was able to use that tool, especially from a values perspective. So what does he value and how did [00:36:00] that compare to the organization that he was going for?. We were able to match that and also bring that up either in the cover letter.

[00:36:08] Or also in the interview. So that really enhances, the growth and the progress of job search. So, in many times, when I’m working with clients, we might start from doing some form of assessment, either the inner metrics tool or I use what’s called the strength inventory, or a Birkman, these tools give us insight to what

[00:36:33] they the attributes, the values, the key characteristics, their strengths, and we utilize that information in driving the driving, what jobs they might be able to go for or learning a little bit about themselves. So becoming more aware so that they can use that awareness in the job search. But Renaldo, what I was going to ask you is that,

[00:36:57] in COVID 19 I’m spending a lot of time talking to different individuals and we’re talking about investing in one’s career. So, I know that you’re also a people leader of people. So what would be your perspective on, should people invest in their career?.  It’s been interesting that people, what we say to people is that if you want to become better at sport, you’re hire a coach.

[00:37:29] If you [00:37:30] want to learn how to do something better, you go out and get coached or trained. But there doesn’t seem to be the same wheel or the same keenness to invest in one’s career. So what would be your perspective on that now having invested in yourself and in your career?. What would you say to those people that are sitting on the fence on whether or not a career coach.

[00:37:57] Could help them or support them through managing, managing, or changing their career. What would be your perspective on that?.

[00:38:07] Renaldo: [00:38:07] Well, my perspective would be to find a career coach,

[00:38:11] Marina Pitisano: [00:38:11] but why? Why is that important?

[00:38:14] Renaldo: [00:38:14] I think you hit the nail on the head. We’re going through a period now where. A lot of people have been made unemployed due to the fact that because of the COVID 19 restrictions in, in retail and hospitality and things like that.

[00:38:26] My attitude growing up, and certainly in my early years of working. I went out and got my, I got my degree. I went out and got my CPA, professional status. I went out and did an MBA. I kept up my, my educational and training to make sure that my skills and my value, and certainly me as an individual, from a professional point of view, that I always have, the ability to be quite marketable if I was looking for a role.

[00:38:56] And certainly, but, but at the same time, [00:39:00] I did that without, in previous times I did that without the help of a career coach. What working with Marina in particular taught me over the last or over that month or two that I was working with her, is that you need someone who can give you some open, honest feedback that is not in conflict in terms of what you do, when, when you’re, when you’re working.

[00:39:19]Over the last, I’ve got a lot of experience over the last 15 years in particular. I’ve seen organizations have different ways of going about. Performing, managing performance of their, of their leaders and, and, and things of that nature. And some organizations have a meeting once a month and they have open and honest conversations.

[00:39:36] Some organizations have a meeting once a year. And so to whiten and get positive feedback or some kind of feedback about your performance once or twice a year, it just isn’t enough. And when you’re working at a, at a, a leader or in a leadership role, or when you’re working for the management team of an organization.

[00:39:54] You gotta make sure that you’re bringing as much value to the table as possible. Otherwise you do run the risk of that.  Someone else will come up at the top of you and take your role. So my advice is if you are a professional that’s looking to make sure that you’re, you’ve got the skills, you’ve got the value, you’re always bringing that competitive edge to the table.

[00:40:13] I think by having a career coach, you’ve got someone there who isn’t at the risk of, doing something that’s in harms way, an organization. So when you’re working, for example, for an organization, if your CEO says something to you that you don’t want to hear, you might get put off. You might feel a bit, a bit unhappy about what he’s told you.

[00:40:29] You [00:40:30] might not feel great about the whole, the whole story,. But, when you’re talking to someone like Marina career coach, go paying them for some professional guidance and professional advice, and they’re going to tell you the truth. At times, they’ll tell you it’s something that you don’t want to really hear or that you don’t really want it, but obviously she did it in a way that was very constructive.

[00:40:47] But I do think it helps to have someone who’s. Coming from a position where they’re, they’re very objective, they have nothing to lose, and they’re telling you, look, you need to improve in this area there, or you didn’t do that. That wasn’t done very well. You could probably improve in that area. There  I can help you do that.

[00:41:03]There’s some things that you should maybe focus on. These are your key strengths, so why don’t we do some more work in those areas there. So I think having someone watching your back and really with nothing to lose and really just everything to gain. I think it’s a, and certainly I’ve already spoken to Marina.

[00:41:19] Now that I’ve secured a role and I’ve been there for the last two or three months. I’m looking to keep using someone like Marina who’s got the experience and, and really, advance my standing and certainly make sure that I can keep. Using what I know, and certainly learning more skills as well and put those in the best possible light.

[00:41:36] So that moving forward, again, I’m constantly evolving as a probational instantly and certainly in a position where, I’m bringing quite a strength and resolve to my position for my employer and making sure that, again, I’m leading and doing the best possible service to the organization that I’ve worked for.

[00:41:56] Grant Williams: [00:41:56] So Renaldo,  just so we clear up. For [00:42:00] people who, who have been listening. You mentioned a five year period, but you, you, you just mentioned then that, you’ve been in a role for a couple of months, so it’s, so this is a really, new, situation for you and that, and the Christmas that we’re talking about, is the one just gone, is that right?

[00:42:21] Yes. Correct. Yep. Okay. Sorry,

[00:42:26] Marina Pitisano: [00:42:26] go on.

[00:42:28] Grant Williams: [00:42:28] Just gonna ask, did you have to deliver any hard truths?

[00:42:32]Marina Pitisano: [00:42:32] no, no, no, no, no. I think what Renaldo is saying is that, what we’re now they’re saying is that when we worked together, it was more about, in this case, I’ll use this word, which I don’t really like, is we had to pivot a little bit around.

[00:42:51] How he had to approach the he’s job search.  And also what he had to package to make sure that he was selling himself correctly. So it was more about giving him constructive advice on. Okay, Renaldo when we got to answer this question, what, what scenario are we going to use? And he would say, Marina, I’ve got the right scenario.

[00:43:18] And I’d say. No, we don’t. We don’t have the right scenario. We need to consider another scenario. You’d be looking at me and thinking, what do you mean we don’t have the right scenario? Now that doesn’t actually answer the question. That doesn’t [00:43:30] actually enhance, that doesn’t actually highlight your skill or your capability.

[00:43:34] It’s actually quite light on for this senior position. We need something a little bit more strategic or more directional. And so that’s when he started to think even deeper about his answers and come up with more. More and more, a better answer or a better example that was going to showcase it. In some cases, what happens is that individuals that go to intern to go, they go to an interview is sometimes they showcase the wrong example, or this, or the example they’ve chosen is quite minimal in demonstrating their skill and capability.

[00:44:08] So if you don’t showcase the right one, you’re got so sometimes my client will turn around and say, well. I don’t have that example, or I really liked by example, I’d say, no, we don’t want that example. We need something deeper. And it was, and Renaldo is very receptive to feedback, as you’ve heard. It’s got, he’s had an assessment.

[00:44:28] He’s happy to take that feedback on. And at times he had to dig really deep for bond. And once he did pull up, James. Which then he was really proud to demonstrate and show when he would go to the, sometimes we just don’t have the chance to think deeper enough. We come up with examples, but they’re not the right ones.

[00:44:49] You need time to think about those and when you have someone that’s giving you that push or that that let’s consider something different, or you give someone a different angle. Which is what we [00:45:00] as coaches do. All of a sudden you’re coming up with more bitter examples, deeper experiences, and showcasing your capabilities a lot better.

[00:45:11] Grant Williams: [00:45:11] Renaldo,  apart from a new position, what did you take away from the process?

[00:45:18] Marina Pitisano: [00:45:18] And he did get a new positioning, by the way,

[00:45:23] Renaldo: [00:45:23] I think what I took away from the process was that. I had so many things inside me that, that I was aware of. Actually unaware of her having someone like Marina really, really feed, with, with more discussion about particular topics and in particular, these are questions that would come up during the interview and when we looked at applications and the, and the, and the cover letter and things like that.

[00:45:46] Well having someone like Marina, she was helping me dig for those gems. She mentioned the gems before. So there’s a lot of gems when you’ve been working for a long time, there’s a lot of experience that’s sitting in your, at the back of your mind, and sometimes you put together your CV or your cover letter, and you really haven’t brought all these stories to the surface.

[00:46:04] So by having someone like Marina asking and probing more. He started digging a bit deeper and understand more about what it is that you’ve done in the past and really learn about your communication style, your leadership style. When there’s been times of conflict, how you’ve handled that, how you’ve been able to bring more values of all that, all those things that go on during an interview and what you’re trying to show your employer.

[00:46:25]She was able to help me pull those things out and certainly, raised those [00:46:30] stories and bring those stories to the force. So that’s where I’ve felt. In terms of the whole process, I was able to just understand myself better. And whenever there was a question, I started to, to, to ask more questions of myself to get the best possible answer.

[00:46:45] Grant Williams: [00:46:45] So Renaldo,  you would, you would repeat the process, again. If you were looking to take another step in the career?.

[00:46:58] Renaldo: [00:46:58] I would definitely repeat the process, but I’m actually looking for  Marina to become a, a career coach for mania going forward permanently. Like we’re going to have a chat later on today about how we can put something in play where I can continue to use her.

[00:47:11] I can continue to give her scenarios about what’s happening at work and what the decisions have taken. And maybe what are you back I can get from her. I mentioned before about performance management and, and getting feedback from your employees in the past. A lot of organizations don’t, I don’t feel have these things.

[00:47:28] None of them in a way. It’s giving their employees the best, the best feedback going forward. So from my point of view, I’m thinking, well, or having someone like Marina on the sid.  Who, who I can go to, who’s working in an objective way, I can ask her things, I can look for her feedback and see where she is, what she thinks and helped me develop my leadership style,. Helped me develop my, my, my values, my, my skills, my experience, the way kind of thing going forward.

[00:47:55] Grant Williams: [00:47:55] So I don’t have to pump up your tires at all today. Marina

[00:48:01] [00:48:00] Marina Pitisano: [00:48:01] pop up my town. But the only thing either how you always say to me. So Marina gave me the final tip of the day.

[00:48:08] Grant Williams: [00:48:08] I was just about to get there.

[00:48:10]Marina Pitisano: [00:48:10] I  love that about you, Grant. The tip of today, and I’m really pleased, that Renaldo has, you know, I’m very privileged and honored that Renaldo has said that, and I, I am going to continue to work with him.

[00:48:25] And I think the biggest,  take away from today’s podcast is go out and invest in your career. It’s worth while spending, whatever it, whatever little money there, whatever money there is, whateve, investment there is to really spend some time in career because it is what we do for most of our lives. Our job in many ways becomes our identity and when we lose that identity, you really need to start to think about how will I, well, what help can I get to help me.

[00:49:08] Drive a really good career choice or a great career. So I really urge people that when they got to these crossroads. If they’re being made redundant, if they’ve lost their job, if they changing their job, or if they’ve decided to leave their job and they’re right in the moment of job search, [00:49:30] that they get support and don’t do it on your own because you can see through these podcasts at the,

[00:49:37] Individuals that have had some support. It doesn’t have to be from me. But the people that have had support have been able to achieve great, have been able to achieve their success in Career . And that’s what this is all about, is getting people to get help, get support, and achieve what they want to achieve in career.

[00:49:57] So that’s it for me.

[00:49:59] Grant Williams: [00:49:59] Would that be your top tip to Renaldo

[00:50:02]Renaldo: [00:50:02] yeah,

[00:50:02] I concur therapy. That’s exactly what it is. But the key message is you need to find someone to support and help you throughout the process. They’ll know things that you just aren’t aware of and they’ll just help you first of all, know yourself fairly in terms of what you’re trying to achieve in the job search process.

[00:50:19] But even just having someone there when you’re, when you are looking for a new role, and if you did, and if you do what I did, which was leave a job and you’re by yourself and yeah. You don’t have anything to go to. Having someone there that you can talk to, bounce things, in terms of getting their feedback and what they think as well.

[00:50:37] Even just that point of view of just that emotional support as well. I think, having someone there to help you throughout the whole process is invaluable.

[00:50:45] Grant Williams: [00:50:45] Well, you mentioned that term fade back. Thanks, Renaldo. It’s given me a, a very good, lading. If you want to give Marina and awesome feedback.

[00:50:57] That’s pretty easy to do. If you’re listening [00:51:00] on Apple podcasts, you can go and leave a review on Apple podcasts. You just click on the on on the page for our podcast and then follow the link Label review. You can do that on Google podcasts and another really easy, easy place to do it is pod chaser, and that’s podcaster.com

[00:51:22]Had to get that little plug in there Renaldo . Thanks,  thanks so much for joining us. It’s, it’s hopefully the difficult thing, I think for people when they’re in a specialized field. And getting near the top of their tray. and you as a CFO, definitely getting to the top of the tray. And, you know, you’ve pursued an MBA after you, CPI accounting qualifications.

[00:51:48] So, there’s, unless you want to go into general managerial, you know, becoming basically the, the, the CAO, It’s, it’s difficult to decide to make that, that step.  You, there, there just aren’t many places to step up to are there. So I reckon good on you. Good on you for doing it. Good on you for investing in yourself.

[00:52:16] And taking the, the, the, the good self advice to get some help. That’s good. That would be my top tip. Even if you don’t reach out to Marina, make sure you find somebody [00:52:30] who can help you with the building blocks to get the resume right, the presentation right. hopefully we’ve covered with the experts series.

[00:52:39] How to come across, look fantastic on video, deal with any of those confidence issues that you might have. Just get on with it. Be positive and do something. Marina, you’re always at, let’s create your career podcast, and that’s, letzcreate.com.au let’s with a Zed.

[00:53:07] Marina Pitisano: [00:53:07] That’s right. Thanks. Well, thanks Grant.

[00:53:10] Grant Williams: [00:53:10] Thanks for bringing renown. I won. Thanks again  Renaldo

[00:53:13] thanks everyone for listening and thank you, Marina on grant Williams, and I’m out of here,

[00:53:23] so I’m going.

[00:53:28] Marina Pitisano: [00:53:28] Okay Renaldo, we got to check out of here and I’ll give you a call.

[00:53:33]Renaldo: [00:53:33] No

[00:53:33] worries at all. Thanks for Marina.

[00:53:35] Marina Pitisano: [00:53:35] Bye.

 

Read the Transcript

Grant Williams:  Let’s create your career, the podcast featuring Australia’s best, most foremost job search and career coach Marina Pitisano. I am Grant Williams. I produce this podcast, push the buttons and hopefully ensure smooth sailing. Start to finish. Hmm. And today Marina’s brought along a fantastic new guest.

[00:00:33] Tell us about Anna

[00:00:34] Marina Pitisano: [00:00:34] Marina. Well, thank you grant. And yes, I’d love to introduce Anna and Anna is very special because as we know, we’re still in, COVID-19 in isolation, and yet Anna was fortunate enough to get a role in these very tough times. So Anna, congratulations and welcome to let’s create your career podcast.

[00:00:57] Love to have you here.

[00:01:01] Anna: [00:01:01] Thank you very much

[00:01:02] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:02] lovely.

[00:01:04] Grant Williams: [00:01:04] Anna. I am really, really curious as a regular listeners would know. I come along to the podcast knowing nothing about add guest and we, we sit up and we, and we go now, wait, when this plays out to the, to the world, hopefully the whole COVID  oscillation and movement restrictions and everything [00:01:30] have come to an end, but the economic devastation that it’s left behind, in this country and in virtually every other country will probably be hanging on.

[00:01:43] Now, I would like to know, did you lose a job as a result of the, the whole slowdown with the COVID situation? and if that was the case, how did you get involved with Marina and be lucky enough to do them to get on with another one?

[00:02:04]Anna: [00:02:04] so yeah, my role, in a big, big four bank Australia, was, created before the, covid 19 crisis.

[00:02:14] And, yeah, they’re actually hiring more people at that bank. it’s kind of linked to that crisis, in a way, stealing the

[00:02:23] project.

[00:02:24] And there’s dealing with measuring credit risk, and the impact that might have going forward, if we do go into quite a big recession after the crisis, Comes to an end.

[00:02:36] So, but, we would, we, the bank that I’m working for was doing all of the checks before this crisis. They were just updating a few things and that’s what the project’s all about. So, yeah. and I was looking for em before the crisis

[00:02:55] occurred, but

[00:02:55] not, not really that hard if you like. I was just,

[00:02:59] basically.

[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Actually being a bit lazy about it, or there was school holidays and things. It’s just, I found it quite hard to get motivated. I hadn’t worked for a long period of time and I enjoyed not working. And

[00:03:15] yeah,

[00:03:16] it was sort of like, yeah, a little bit kind of, yeah. Sort of thinking I should get a job and then just a half thinking, well, I really enjoy this life

[00:03:29] Marina Pitisano: [00:03:29] Before working before you joined me.

[00:03:33] How long had you been out of work?

[00:03:37] Anna: [00:03:37] So I, I didn’t, basically I didn’t work for about two,

[00:03:40] two and a bit years.

[00:03:42] Which was my choice. I didn’t want to work for a while. I was just getting over some things that were going on in my family and, yeah, hang off to my son and making sure he had the right support.

[00:03:55] So, yeah,

[00:03:57] Marina Pitisano: [00:03:57] but

[00:04:00] that’s right. And that’s really important because she had been, and I had been out of work for quite a while when she decided. In half about why, like she wasn’t, she wasn’t really a hundred percent, but she thought, Oh, maybe I should start to look at the workforce. And maybe I should start to get back into the workforce.

[00:04:21] And we actually started that work around middle of February, end of March. So we had just met, we had just [00:04:30] started the journey and shut down, came around the 14th of 21st of March. But by then, We had, we had field a opportunity. So when you listen to Anna’s story, it’s interesting about what she found difficult through the job search and also, what she really needed a lot of help on.

[00:04:52] So that’s the journey we’ll go through today in this

[00:04:55] podcast. Yeah.

[00:04:58] Grant Williams: [00:04:58] Marina, it sounds like Anna has the advantage of being  in a specialized field and that people who have a high level and very specialized talents will certainly be in demand as we come out of the, the, the current downturn. Hmm.

[00:05:24]Marina Pitisano: [00:05:24] totally a great, you know, people like Emma.

[00:05:29] Yes. However it’s, we might know that, but through Anna’s journey, she wasn’t. She had not realized how important her skills were and because she had not utilized them for a couple of years, she actually wasn’t sure how job ready or whether those skills were still viable in today’s market. She actually, wasn’t sure about that.

[00:05:53] We know that, you know, a risk role, a governance role, a compliance role in these large [00:06:00] organizations. Especially  as we come out of COVID-19 and they’re going to be even more important.  But someone that’s not been part of a role for a long time, someone that doubts their ability and someone that thinks am I still relevant?

[00:06:14] Am I still credible? Am I still, you know, am I still am my skills still up to date? And are they going to be, recognized, accepted, and will I have the opportunity to get into a role. We have that, yes, we, from an objective perspective, we can offer that. But from a subjective perspective, you’re never really sure.

[00:06:38] And you also question and doubt your own ability and that, that was what we had to work with and work on for Anna,

[00:06:48] Grant Williams: [00:06:48] Anna, what was your immediately past role before you took your time off? And what were you really looking for this time around?

[00:07:04]Anna: [00:07:04] I basically worked at another big financial services company before this role and, I was doing, the same, a similar role, but in a slightly different department. And it was again, dealing with regulators. Ping and fun, actual service. So similar to similar background to, the role I’ve taken on [00:07:30] now,

[00:07:31] Grant Williams: [00:07:31] can you flesh out a little bit?

[00:07:33] I, for everyone, what, what your role entails? Are you again?

[00:07:45] Anna: [00:07:45] So sorry. Can you repeat that? Cause it just cut out. The

[00:07:49] Grant Williams: [00:07:49] kits. Could you perhaps flesh out a little bit so that somebody who’s not familiar with, with, with the type of role that you carry out in a, in a big financial institution, can you give, give the listeners and, and me an idea of what you, what you would do on a day to day and, and perhaps how you was, are you assigned clients or.

[00:08:16] Cool. Do you look at one client in particular or do you look at a class of different businesses?

[00:08:24] Anna: [00:08:24] So, yeah, my role was, working as a, what’s called a business analyst in the it department. The new role I’ve got is a business analyst actually in the risk and strategy department. There’s very similar transferable skills that you have.

[00:08:43]so you have to summarize what the business needs are, and sit with people who know how the processes and strategy of the business works and then try to, [00:09:00] kind of them articulate what they do on a daily day to day basis in their business and their, yeah. Basically then see what the changes that they need done.

[00:09:14]like many of the projects I worked on, cause I was in the always have been in the project space. so many of the projects have got to deal with a particular piece of ATO tax or, or regulation change, where they have to update something. And of course they want to keep those updates. So it’s all about the balance between what, you know, they, they can afford to do.

[00:09:43] And, they also have many deadlines that regulators set, which sometimes are  in a, in a big  big institution, not, not really  achievables you have to kind of negotiate and work out what, what you can achieve. And when, and then often the banks or financial institutions will go back to the regulator and go, you know, we, we need time and they’ll try to meet what the regulator wants, but yeah, it’s all about negotiation.

[00:10:16] And I helped with that often. And then what

[00:10:20] you do is you

[00:10:21] get into the little detail of what the tasks like the system changes

[00:10:26] or

[00:10:26] process changes, make sure that it’s all clearly [00:10:30] documented. Cause you know that the regulators are going to come in and check what you’ve been up to. Well, and also the shareholders will want to know what they spent their money on.

[00:10:39] And so, yeah, basically that’s what we have to do. Stick, try and deliver things for change, you know, to meet the regulatory changes across the bank or financial

[00:10:52] institution.

[00:10:54] And I think what’s important grant is that a lot of people will make the mistake that you did, which is it’s a bank. And therefore she would be in a front facing role.

[00:11:04] But Anna’s role is actually back office and head office. And it’s all her analytical skills and, and being a business analyst, she is analyzing the banks on a whole, the processes behind that, implemented for and looked at to minimize,  risks in the banking organization. So she will have a particular area, but she analyzes the processes and determines or identifies what would be the risk element and find ways to minimize it.

[00:11:39] So these are really strong and analytical roles and depending on whether you’re in the risk, Framework or the governance framework or the compliance framework. And she, and Anna is very much in the risk using a risk framework, making sure that the processes that are implemented or changed in [00:12:00] the banking industry, the risks are mitigated and making sure that if regulators, which is your AC.

[00:12:08] Tubs into the bank and looks at these looks at these processes. We have minimized the risk. So therefore we don’t spend millions of dollars because of risk has occurred. We’ve minimized it, she’s checked that. And she makes sure that, we’re, the banking system and their processes are free of any major risks.

[00:12:33] Grant Williams: [00:12:33] I understood. I understood what the process was. I just wanted to be clear of whether Anna is only analyzing the bank’s internal systems or where that Anna’s role is also analyzing the systems of the customers of the bank for the bank, so that the bank can make a judgment about. I particular business that might be wanting to do something because, cause it sounds like, the clients that, in, in Anna’s level of, of the bank would be major multi outlet, and this  businesses rather than, private businesses.

[00:13:17] Would that be right

[00:13:18] Anna: [00:13:18] Anna?

[00:13:20] I missed some of that again. Sorry. It’s yeah, yeah.

[00:13:26] Grant Williams: [00:13:26] Yeah. Just to clarify if, if you only look at the [00:13:30] bank or your own company’s internal systems, or whether you look at the systems and processes of customers of the bank for the bank.

[00:13:44]Anna: [00:13:44] so no, it would be the  internal systems.

[00:13:48] A lot of the time that I’m dealing with that the bank have, and definitely they’re like manual processes, right through from, you know, when they speak to a customer and take down the customer’s details and the customer buys a product through to reporting about that particular sale or product all the way through to the tax people or the, or the regulator.

[00:14:15] Grant Williams: [00:14:15] Great.

[00:14:16] So when, when you were ready to reenter the workforce, did you feel ready to go like, or did you really feel like it would be a difficult move?

[00:14:34]Anna: [00:14:34] I know, I didn’t feel ready. That’s all I called out for help. and I had procrastinated so much because I didn’t feel ready. And I knew that, I needed help, with my presentation of, information about my career.

[00:14:51] Cause I’m an Old some  my career has spanned over 25 years. So presenting that [00:15:00] information, in a succinct way was very hard for me. And, yeah, I got a great deal of help from Marina for that. Yeah. I had a nine page resume at one stage, which is the, you know, the equivalent of war and peace. I realized when you’re, sitting on the other side of the fence reading.

[00:15:20]people’s resumes and trying to work out, you know, whether there’ll be a good fit for the role you’re hiring for. So thank goodness for her. She made it look wonderful. And

[00:15:31] Marina Pitisano: [00:15:31] I’m very short. My pleasure

[00:15:35] Grant Williams: [00:15:35] for the young people listening or pace was such a big book that it turned into a three and a half hour film.

[00:15:44] And that was the short version.

[00:15:50] Marina, tell us about, the shape Anna was in, when she came to you and what was the first thing you had to do?

[00:15:58] Marina Pitisano: [00:15:58] Well, as I’ve mentioned a few times so far in our podcast is that she wasn’t ready. So, she had her nine page resume and she sort of looked at it and went, what am I supposed to do with this?

[00:16:12] And I don’t, I always remember NSA to me. I don’t know how to shorten it. I don’t know what I’m supposed to put in what I’m supposed to keep out. And so we, and the other thing that Anna was really concerned about was how does she present herself at an [00:16:30] interview? That was really difficult for Anna because she had not been for an interview for a long time, but also prior to her leaving her last organization.

[00:16:42] And I had the privilege of always being able to move around in the organization. You know, she was tapped on the shoulder. She was given the opportunity. So the chance or the opportunity to actually be interviewed was quite minimal. So, you know, and also she had been out of the organization, she had been out of the market for two and a half years.

[00:17:03] She really didn’t know what, where the tool had. The tools needed to look like what was required for her to job search. And also she also doubted to some extent, her own ability because you know, who would, ah, my skills. You know, I, my skills  is transferable to another industry, even though we did get into the same industry, but I had a two and a half year break.

[00:17:29] How do I actually manage that? How do I talk about that? And, you know, has that impacted my opportunity to get another role since I’ve been out of work for two and a half years? Now, as Anna mentioned, she was caring for family. So when you have a break and you highlight that that’s not a problem what so ever in today’s world, if you have a break and you’re caring for family or you’re traveling, the break is not a problem.

[00:17:56] You just need to highlight what the break is for people that are [00:18:00] potential employers will understand that, that that’s not the issue. The, where you do need to expand is to ensure. That you highlight the necessary skills for that role. And once you’ve been out of it for two and a half years, it’s really hard to remember.

[00:18:17] It’s really hard to go back and think what were my achievements? What were my responsibilities? how do I present myself now? after two and a half years of being out of the workforce. So that’s what we worked through and I think. I always say this with clients is as they start to learn about their achievements, as they start to see their resumes unfold, as they start to see that LinkedIn profiles come together and start to connect with what they’ve achieved in the past, they do build their sense of confidence.

[00:18:49] They do build. They, they do remove that sense of doubt. they build their confidence and they’re able to put them put the best, best selves forward because they know what to do and how to do it. So that’s, what’s really important.

[00:19:05] Grant Williams: [00:19:05] Anna, what did you feel you really needed to work on after your first meeting with Marina?

[00:19:16]Anna: [00:19:16] so yeah, Marina just, Gave me lots of confidence. And I could see she was, had, you know, she was so professional and had, yeah, basically had done this a lot before, [00:19:30] got to, quite a long career like myself. So, yeah, she, yeah, she’s really good at, being able to pick out, Your weak points and, help you build confidence in those areas.

[00:19:43] And, she’s very forthright. So, yeah. Definitely I’m a waffler and she was quite happy to tell me that

[00:19:51] what I was doing by

[00:19:53] mock interviews and things. So, yeah, it basically turned all the things that I was anxious about round into something that I then became a lot more confident about.

[00:20:05] Marina Pitisano: [00:20:05] A hard part.

[00:20:05] Is it all pointed at his strong points? Not your weak points, but yeah.

[00:20:11] Anna: [00:20:11] Yes, definitely that as well, but also I tend to focus because I was being a bit of a negative person

[00:20:19] at the time. Although the day, the week things

[00:20:23] get, you could see that and then help me, you know, work through those as well. And then, yeah, obviously there was a whole load of stuff where I was.

[00:20:32] Not actually, not realizing that they were strength and don’t, you helped me with those too, but yeah, ,

[00:20:42] Grant Williams: [00:20:42] that’s interesting what Anna mentioned there about, maybe having a, an, a negative mindset or, or perhaps just not being terribly confident about, about where, where you’re situated when you are coming.

[00:20:59] Back into the [00:21:00] workforce. How, how did, let me phrase it a different way? Did, did you change or did you give Anna some homework to do and some, some things to practice that changed her mindset or did you need to change her mindset to make the strategies and the processes that you have to offer more effective?

[00:21:28] Marina Pitisano: [00:21:28] That’s a great question. So what I did was that in my, in my journey with my clients, what I realize is when they have self doubt or have a negative mindset, All that confidence it’s simply because they’ve not connected with what they’ve achieved in their lives. They’ve either forgotten it or thought that if I’ve been able to do it, so can everybody else.

[00:21:53] So, and reframing that mindset around. You have a lot to offer you are you have all these skills that we can talk about and look at what you’ve achieved and when that comes out through the session. So I need to elicit that information from the client so that I can prepare the resume. And as we draw all that experience out those achievements, those skills, those capabilities, all of a sudden their mindset changes into, from.

[00:22:28] Being negative [00:22:30] and doubtful to being quite positive and excited because they now can connect with what they can offer a potential employer. If you don’t connect with what you can offer potential employer and you don’t promote yourself effectively when talking to a potential employer, you’re not going to be able.

[00:22:51] To get over the line. And that’s where we, I often state you’ve got to stand out. So being able to work through that process of identifying the key skills and the skills that she does have, and she owns that the key. Experience that she’s had. And also the achievements, which were quite large in Anna’s case, which she underplayed in many ways.

[00:23:18] And as, as she pointed out, she can waffles. So I turned around and said, you know, this is, this is a way you speak. So we need to actually. Reframe that change out a little and be able to be a lot more directive, which she did because we used a process which Anna will go through that really made her succinct and be able to deliver a great upgrade, a great example in her interviews.

[00:23:48] So the process is very much about. People connecting with what they can offer and really looking at that and being proud of that and having, and [00:24:00] realizing that they are capable and competent and yes, they have, they have a lot to offer and that’s how you move someone from being quite negative into a really good, positive mindset,

[00:24:16] Grant Williams: [00:24:16] which point in, in your, A relationship with, with Marina.

[00:24:23] Did you feel like you turned the corner and you were ready to grab or ready to be offered an opportunity?

[00:24:34]Anna: [00:24:34] so I think it was when I, followed, Marina’s, star plan and also did all the homework that she gave me. There was lots

[00:24:44] of homework.

[00:24:45] So, she basically was asking me to prepare, myself for interviews by, Taking roles and thinking of all of the achievements that I’ve had, or had done in these roles and presenting them in a good way.

[00:25:04] And I had to have at least 10 examples and she also, But, was teaching me about the different interview techniques that, you know, banks and financial institutions might have the main knowledge about, you know, interview techniques and also about the banking world  so she’s, you know, an ideal coach for me.

[00:25:28] And, yeah, I [00:25:30] got my confidence up by doing role playing with Marina and then basically I, yeah, felt a lot more confident when I went for a couple of interviews.

[00:25:41] Grant Williams: [00:25:41] Did you enjoy doing all the homework? Like, was it a bit of a voyage of self discovery?

[00:25:50] Anna: [00:25:50] Yeah, it was fun to do it cause I’ve, haven’t really had time to concentrate on myself, a lot recently.

[00:25:59] So, yeah, just, I just felt I came on, you know, improved greatly in a short space time

[00:26:06] with Marina’s coaching.

[00:26:09] And, I did wasn’t as anxious going to interviews, per because of her help basically.

[00:26:17] Grant Williams: [00:26:17] Marina. It’s important for people to understand isn’t it that when you need, when you need to get a job and you’re having trouble finding one there’s this work you have to do, you really need to put in effort.

[00:26:34] Now, were you happy with how, how much effort Anna put in and how quickly at tender around.

[00:26:43]Marina Pitisano: [00:26:43] I was extremely happy and I know that I am convinced more and more when I work with my clients that if they take on, what Anna did, which is, she was very committed to doing the work, [00:27:00] making sure that she would, she worked really hard on coming up with a scenario.

[00:27:06] So. What’s really important about an interview is that people need to prepare, you need to prepare for those interviews. And when I work with, when I see a lot of people in, in, in the market and I talked to them and I asked them about, do they prepare? They actually don’t prepare very well. So a lot of people think that they’re going to be able to walk in and just fluke it, but you can’t.

[00:27:32] You need to be able to have the being prepared, have your scenarios and have a good idea of what is going to be asked. Now the trick to that is making sure you see the case selection criteria. That gives you an indication to what could be asked, but it’s not the only thing. So, and for me, when I work with my clients, I, you cannot, I say this to Anna.

[00:27:59] You can’t prepare for every question they’re going to ask. There’s no way you can do that. It’s an impossibility. But what you do need to do is create these 10 or 12. Really, really thorough examples. And I love Anna before we started, she said, what was that technique? You showed me. What was that technique?

[00:28:18] And the technique is staff, which is situation, task, action result. And most people know about that technique and sometimes we’ll ignore it, but what’s really important when I speak to recruiters is [00:28:30] that, the, what they are looking for is that real minuscule details. So they want to know the situation you were in, what you did.

[00:28:38] How you did it and what was the result? And Anna memorize that her 10 scenarios or 12 were memorized to a T. So when she actually walked into the interview, she was asked most of the questions we prepared and she was able to confidently talk about them

[00:28:59] easily. And

[00:29:01] I remember Anna coming out of the interview saying, Oh my God, how did you guess that they were going to ask you these questions?

[00:29:08] And I didn’t guess I just knew that if she had the scenarios, really, she would able to use those scenarios in the interview. So what a lot of people make the mistake on is not preparing and not preparing thoroughly enough. And in today’s market, when you have got hundreds of applications going through and you’re shortlisted to maybe the top 10, or maybe the top five, if you are not thoroughly prepared for those interviews, more than likely you won’t be successful at them.

[00:29:43] Grant Williams: [00:29:43] You mentioned the checkmate. And, and you said it’s really important. Can you give us an example of a question that might be answered and might be asked [00:30:00] and a model kind of answer for it?

[00:30:05] Marina Pitisano: [00:30:05] So an example of that is, a stat and so always. You always respond to star response to what we call a behavioral behavioral type question.

[00:30:17] So why they asked behavioral type questions is because they can predict what you’ve done in the past. Will you will act and behave the same in the future. So it’s a behavioral type question, which is, tell me about a time you had a challenging. challenging client. What did you do and what was the outcome?

[00:30:37] So you would say, well, when I was at initial Australia bank, you know, and I was an, and I was a teller at the bank, you know, I had a client walk in and they were very angry and upset because they couldn’t access their account. I know what I did was that I, I asked what the account details, where I investigated.

[00:30:58]what had happened to the account? Why had it closed? You know, I suppose to re re. Rank up, our inquiry center to find out what had happened. And we discovered that it had been closed by accident because they didn’t have much money in the account. And in the bank, you know, there are accounts that have been held open for a long time.

[00:31:20] And if it’s not used. That will be closed down. So I had to go and explain that to the client. I had to inform them that unfortunately, the camp was closed on behalf [00:31:30] of the bank and that, you know, we’re quite happy. There was not much money in the account, but we could refund that. And so I explained to them what accounts were available today and what we could do for them.

[00:31:42] I set up a new account for the, the client was extremely happy and even spoke to the branch of Canton and gave them feedback on the great customer service I provided. That is I start answer.

[00:31:56] Grant Williams: [00:31:56] Anyone would think that you work for a bank?

[00:32:02] Anna: [00:32:02] Yes.

[00:32:04] Marina Pitisano: [00:32:04] Yes. I’ll give you a job. I’ll come work with you.

[00:32:16] Grant Williams: [00:32:16] Before you took the job that, that we’ve been talking about. Did you have any other interviews, for other positions? And if you did, did you, did you have any questions that you didn’t do a good job of answering.

[00:32:40] Anna: [00:32:40] Oh, I’m hearing every other.

[00:32:45] Marina Pitisano: [00:32:45] You probably hear me better. And I teach you have, did you have interviews before, before the interview at the bank, did you have a one or two interviews before?

[00:32:56]Anna: [00:32:56] yes I did. Yeah.

[00:32:57] Marina Pitisano: [00:32:57] Yep. And what happened in those interviews?

[00:33:00] [00:33:00] Anna: [00:33:00] Yeah. Yeah, but they were all in the same kind of team. But yeah, I knew, I think the team eventually knew couple of interviews that they wanted me to join, but the roles that I would have been viewed for ended up being a bit different.

[00:33:20] So,

[00:33:21] Marina Pitisano: [00:33:21] but before we work, had you attended any other interview?

[00:33:29]Anna: [00:33:29] no, I, I did do a couple of interviews before I. I met you  but yeah, I didn’t get those roles, but, and I, I can see me.

[00:33:39] Marina Pitisano: [00:33:39] Yeah. And what was, what was the difference? What, what, what was the difference between going for those roles when you might not have been prepared compared to how you work and Peter, what’s the difference?

[00:33:50] That’s what I think grant is asking. What did you find was the difference?

[00:33:56] Anna: [00:33:56] Yeah, it was definitely my confidence level and my, the way I presented the information about my career and myself,

[00:34:07] Marina Pitisano: [00:34:07] and also the examples you provided, did you feel that you were able to provide quite thorough examples because you had prepared them beforehand?

[00:34:19] Anna: [00:34:19] Yeah. Yeah. Much more confident presenting about my, so, and that my examples actually met the court, the interview. [00:34:30] It was too, about me, but I hadn’t gone off topic or, or, you know, it wasn’t sort of, I didn’t feel like I was, I suppose I’m like, okay, Oh answering it.

[00:34:43] Wasn’t like a prepared something of an example that was off topic. If you like, it was actually a relevant. and it didn’t look too rehearsed if you like it, it became the, I felt, I thought I was more natural and actually, you know, managing teams more agile at use the example of library to meet that question was.

[00:35:08] Well for that question.

[00:35:11] Marina Pitisano: [00:35:11] So, and if I ask you a question, you know, you’ve been, I would love you to go through how you were feeling, trying to find work after two and a half years. So we. What you, the emotions you were going through, how would you describe them? So here we are two and a half years later, you decided that you need to go into the workforce.

[00:35:38] What were, what were the feelings that you were going through at that moment? So I think we can connect with a lot of viewers around this question. So what were you feeling and going through what was going on in your mind and how were you emotionally feeling.

[00:35:57]Anna: [00:35:57] so yeah, just, I just, I [00:36:00] felt that all of the information about me looked very tired and out of date. And, a lot of it was the resume and the LinkedIn profile just repeated a lot of the my skillset again and again. so yeah, just had no confidence that it was being presented in a, in a good way, or that I was presented a good way.

[00:36:24] So, I knew that I needed help to get them. Yeah, that I needed, like, yeah. Professional help with the LinkedIn profile and may, and also even just career advice. Cause Mar Marina actually told me that she didn’t think one of the roles I was going forward, you know, quite right. And, you know, helped me.

[00:36:48] To focus on what, you know, the correct roles for me. I wanted something that I was comfortable with, that I’ve done before, as I was returning to work, I didn’t want something brand new that was really out of my comfort zone. So, yeah, I ended up getting almost my career as about the role of roles I should be paying, applying for as well.

[00:37:13] Yeah.

[00:37:13] Marina Pitisano: [00:37:13] Correct.

[00:37:14] Anna: [00:37:14] Like a whole, you know, you would use the whole deal, you know what, everything I needed to help with you with that for me.

[00:37:24] Marina Pitisano: [00:37:24] Yeah. Thank you.

[00:37:30] [00:37:30] Grant Williams: [00:37:30] The, the process that you went through was successful, but did you feel that you’ve learned, many new skills and perhaps even picked up some attitudes that, really valuable from you apart from Justine, securing your new role.

[00:37:58] Anna: [00:37:58] Yeah. I would say that I can use some of those, skills that Marina’s taught me in actual jobs. A lot of the time,  you have to stand up and give presentations and, you know, I feel like I have a lot more confidence to be able to do now. I like the whole staff principle, you know, I think, anything you’re trying to explain to people can be, you know, you can use that technique, get your point across.

[00:38:29] So take that with me. In some of my work now being a business analyst is all about trying to, communicate with people across various roles, within an organization, to my T unit, the people at the coalface who are in sales and then compliance people, accountants, quite different characters that you come across and, Yeah, that, that, this term of presenting [00:39:00] information seems to work, in my, my role as well as an interview technique.

[00:39:06] So thanks for that

[00:39:09] Grant Williams: [00:39:09] Marina. What are some of the things that, you helped Anna, develop that. essential for anybody looking for a new job.

[00:39:25] Marina Pitisano: [00:39:25] Well, as we’ve gone through, what’s, if you are job seeking job, searching, wanting to change your job in any way. I’m looking at other career options. The first point of call is of course your resume.

[00:39:39] You need to make sure that that is a working document. That’s working for you, and it is different, the right messages and stand, and it’s in a format that it will stand out. To potential employers, making sure that it’s clean, that it’s, professional and it has all the information in it. And so if they, if listeners that are listening to the podcast, if they want to know what that looks like, please go to my website or download my job application kit.

[00:40:11] I provide that, that outline of a, an effective resume and cover letter for anyone that needs one. secondly, you also need to make sure that you get into a,  you have the right mindset. So you make sure that [00:40:30] you are quite confident. And so we worked on that and also making sure that you’re extremely well prepared for that interview.

[00:40:37] So they are the tools that I, that we really stood out when working with Anna, that we had to work on to ensure that we got her into the, into the role she has today.

[00:40:51] Grant Williams: [00:40:51] Do you

[00:40:52] think that Anna ,  you will be staying in the, the kind of role, that you’ve settled into, for the longterm now, or would you be eager to do some kind of a, career change again in the next 10 years?

[00:41:15] Anna: [00:41:15] I’m quite happy doing this role. I like working in the project space because it allows you to move, and solve different problems, when you move to a different project, but it’s, I’ve seen the same skills that I’ve been building on, for the last 10 years or so. And, yeah, I, I definitely want to stay in that area.

[00:41:41] It’s yeah, very well paid as well as a voice. Yeah. I

[00:41:47] Grant Williams: [00:41:47] remember that as a really good example of somebody who is incrementally building a career and making it stronger. [00:42:00] And there’s a real sense of security that, that I get from, from Anna that she knows that her, she knows she’s very competent at what she, is doing.

[00:42:14] And. That, just, you know, little, little nips, little building blocks can, make a satisfying career. But, as Anna just mentioned that I wasn’t going to, financially very real rewarding career, but one that, an undeniable sheet to pivot, this, that would, that. That you don’t like too much Marina, but, I think if you’re at one or it’s always give you an opportunity to just tweak, if you, if you get to that fatigue stage in a career.

[00:42:58] Now I know that isn’t exactly what happened with. with Anna, but she’s had to make some small adjustments and I will to sort of continue. It’s almost a linear, a linear progression, and to be satisfied with what she’s doing.

[00:43:17] Marina Pitisano: [00:43:17] Definitely. I mean, it was a linear progression. There was a, there was a major break in her career, which most of us have.

[00:43:24] And what’s really fantastic about Anna and my work with [00:43:30] her is I don’t want to mention that dirty word that starts with an M, which is maturity that a lot of people say are, is that going to hold me back at no time? It at her. And I have to worry about maturity because when you show your capability, when you show your skills and when you are able to deliver a really good.

[00:43:55]a really good story, you know, maturity doesn’t always come into play. And so for those people out there that feel that because they’re now older, and possibly don’t have the same opportunities or, in some ways their maturity is going to be held against them. You know, Anna was a brilliant example of going back into a senior role with the, with very similar skills because of her history and her capability.

[00:44:26] She was able to win a fantastic role because she believed in herself and she was able to drive that message. So maturity does not always come to play and it does not always have an interest or a major role in people not. Getting the role. So that’s really important. And that’s why I asked Anna to come on to show that yes, she had her anxiety yet.

[00:44:50] She had her doubts, but yet she had a rich history of experience that she was able to deliver in the interview and she [00:45:00] was able to win out. So I just want to give people that have, that are more mature, that might’ve had a break. Or that I’m feeling like I don’t have a chance to say, yes, you do. And it’s in anything and everything is possible.

[00:45:17] And so not to hold you back because you think you’re mature, mature, and people think that you’re too old. So I encourage people to still go for their dreams regardless of how old they are.

[00:45:31] Grant Williams: [00:45:31] Anna

[00:45:32] Marina, was reluctant to mention, did, did your maturity and, opera fair to think of it as experience because you, when you, when you had, a long continual career in, in the one sort of industry, you. You know, you know, a lot, you know, a lot of things. Did that, experience home maturity make you reticent to reach out for assistance?

[00:46:10] Anna: [00:46:10] Yeah, it, it made me, ask for help. I have a friend who, In her late fifties. And she said, I never basically because of my age. So I thought, Oh, well, I’m gonna definitely have to prove her wrong and also ask for as much help as I [00:46:30] can get. Cause she, she may have had a very good point, but, but I just thought, well, I’ve got years of experience.

[00:46:37]yeah. And, that. It should be seen as a good, so, yeah, I proved her wrong with Marina’s help. Yeah.

[00:46:48] Grant Williams: [00:46:48] Marina, every employee is starting to realize that, the more mature and the more experienced candidates really have a lot to offer. Have they got over that? That sort of prejudice that I think was fairly common that the olive learned all these bad habits and we’ll have to re try and re trying them.

[00:47:12] And, and in the way our mall has employed has got that reject.

[00:47:19] Marina Pitisano: [00:47:19] I’m not sure if employees have got over it, but I do think that there are employers out there that still have that stigma about maturity. so, and there are roles out there that are better suited. For younger people, there are other roles that are more suited for more mature people.

[00:47:38] And my view on this is that regardless of how the employer feels and thinks about the candidate, it is really important for the candidate to be able to demonstrate and show why choosing a person that has maturity. It could be, could work [00:48:00] in their favor. So it’s about stepping forward and stepping in with the right attitude to say, yes, I am a mature candidate, but this is what I offer you as a mature candidate.

[00:48:12] So not to shy away from it, not to be embarrassed by it and not to hold the fact that you’re mature, hold it, hold it back, or feel that you’re not going to be chosen. Because of that maturity is a really hard one because yes, there are employers that will not entertain the chewer people. I have have employers move towards more diversity.

[00:48:38] Yes, they have. We’re incorporating mature people. We’re corporating people with challenges. We’re incorporating people with, you know, you know, people that have got serious challenges in their lives. Yes. The world is trying to open up. But it doesn’t mean that all employers will have that view. So it’s really up to the candidate to be able to say yes, You, you choosing me, this is what I’ll offer.

[00:49:07] If you know, you being able to sell yourself in that situation is really critical and not, and not pretend or hide away from the fact that maturity maturity is not maturity is, can be an asset in many ways. And you need to be able to demonstrate that when you can.

[00:49:26] Grant Williams: [00:49:26] I think I know the answer to this question, but.

[00:49:30] [00:49:30] Would you encourage any other, experienced and mature people who are seeking a change to reach out to a coach of some sort?

[00:49:46] Anna: [00:49:46] Yeah, I I’ve already recommended her to lots of my friends. unfortunately I’m, I feel very lucky that I got this role in particular. At this time, there are a lot of my friends. Who’ve not been so lucky in hospitality or travel industry. so, yeah, I would definitely recommend Marina to them just even when things start to pick up again.

[00:50:12]and I expect those industries who have, you know, less, less roles going, especially to begin with. So. it’s going to be quite tough and doggy dog, I think they’re going to have to up their game, to get the roles that are going. So, yeah, I definitely say Marina can help in that area. And also, I, I would, I haven’t used Marina for this, but I suspect she’s got the skills to be able to help people move from one domain to another and recognize the potential in that.

[00:50:47] Ski can cross over and then build some confidence to be able to move from say hospitality or travel to somewhere else because yeah, their lane may not be jumped [00:51:00] in there. So, yeah, she, yeah. You know, basically it’s one stop shop as well. That’s what I liked, you know, Pam do linked in, she can do recommend, can do into the interview techniques and coaching.

[00:51:16] So, yeah, basically you don’t have to go off to different areas with the different, you know, different things that you need. It’s all in one place.

[00:51:27] Grant Williams: [00:51:27] Well,

[00:51:27] Marina, that seems like the perfect place for me to say. What are your top tips that we can, get out of your experience and Anna’s experience?

[00:51:38] Marina Pitisano: [00:51:38] Well, I talked to today. I love the top tips. It’s fantastic. Is. if you, if you need help and if you are struggling in job, searching, reach out and get help, that’s really, really important. and really think about. Why would you not invest in your career? You know, Anna is a brilliant example of being told.

[00:52:04] That’s not where it’s not something that I would do. And by Anna reaching out and getting some help, she was able to secure a really great role that possibly she might not have secured if had she had not asked for help. The other thing that’s really important. Is making sure that your tools are pretty sharp, so ensure that your resume’s working for you and also making sure that you’re well prepared for that interview.

[00:52:29] So [00:52:30] what I’d really love our listeners to do is that if you haven’t got the right resume and as Anna pointed out with COVID-19, people might need to change their careers. They might need to pivot. Well, I might want to start to need to apply for jobs. Download my job application kit. It’s there for free, you know, downloaded, have a look at what the templates look like.

[00:52:54] Have a look at what you need to stand out in a cover letter, you know, reach out and get some help. So download the job application kit. The other thing is listened to accurate booster series, which is all working with really good experts. You know, how do you not have to have your LinkedIn profile? What does your PR into peripheral need to look like?

[00:53:16] You know, talk to, you know, and listen to Gabor around mindset. Listen to Eileen around building awareness. So you might not need to reach out to help, but you can listen to the experts. And also my recommendation is also maybe if your not sure about what you want to do and your answers are quite scared about the job market, the way it is, reach out and have a chat with me.

[00:53:41] Simply go to my website, have a chat. Now booking some kind of 15 minute career chat with me and let me, let me listen to what you need and hopefully I can help you in some way. So the tips is getting, getting everything in place and the biggest tip is get help if you need it.

[00:54:00] [00:54:00] Grant Williams: [00:54:00] Well, chip is for people to go to let’s create with his head.

[00:54:07] let’zcreate.com.au  and Dan lied any of the free resources. And my other tip is to give Marina a review for, for the podcast, because we want to, we want to improve. It’s all about improvement. Just give us a review, some good, honest feedback. Nobody can be, it can be upset about that. Apple podcast is a great place to do it, or you can do it at pod chaser or Stitcher.

[00:54:43] Any of those places you can tell us

[00:54:47] not

[00:54:48] cruelly and just failing. And so we cannot excuse him that

[00:54:53] Marina Pitisano: [00:54:53] that’s

[00:54:54] Grant Williams: [00:54:54] right, Anna. Thanks for coming along. It’s been a pleasure to, understand your career. And I’m good on you for taking the time out and, and getting things in order that you needed to take care of.

[00:55:11] Cause that’s always challenging. And it’s good to say that you sort of bounce back, cause cause it can drag you down kind of it.

[00:55:24] Anna: [00:55:24] Yeah, totally. so yeah, I’m just, yeah, so pleased that you [00:55:30] have found Marina.

[00:55:33] Marina Pitisano: [00:55:33] Well, thanks grant.

[00:55:37] Grant Williams: [00:55:37] Thank you everybody for

[00:55:39] listening,

[00:55:41] Marina, Peter Sinai at let’zcreate.com.au Thanks everyone.

[00:55:51] Anna: [00:55:51] Thanks then.

[00:55:52] Marina Pitisano: [00:55:52] Bye.

 

Read the Transcript

Grant Williams:

Let’s Create Your Career Podcast. I’m Grant Williams your cohost. Your expert host is Marina Pitisano.

Marina Pitisano:

Well done, Grant.

Grant Williams:

I’ve got that right.

Marina Pitisano:

Thank god. Yes.

Grant Williams:

Marina, you’re an expert career coach.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, and would you like me to say something about that?

Grant Williams:

Yeah. I would.

Marina Pitisano:

Well, yeah, so I’m really excited today because I have another guest that’s going to talk about his career journey, which is Andrew. And yes, what it’s all about is very much about what are the journeys of some of these people that are out there job hunting, looking for jobs, really struggling with the marketplace? And it’s really nice to listen to stories of everyday people that have gone through that journey and now have had some really great success. And what made them successful? What was the journey like? What’s happened in the end? And what were the things that made it … How did we arrive at that point? And hopefully we can share that today, around what is it that as a career coach I help individuals with? However, what is it that they need help with that we can then arrive at that journey or that destination.

Grant Williams:

Hi, Andrew, thanks a lot for coming in.

Andrew:

Hi Grant. Thank you. thanks for having me.

Grant Williams:

And I know you said you felt a bit intimidated because it was a bit like a radio studio. But it’s not, it’s just a room with a table and a couple of microphones. And we’re just having a chinwag. Can I ask you what led to your needing to make a change in career? What was the situation?

Andrew:

Yeah, so I’d worked for NAB for the best part of 30 years. And I’d gone back to them in a full-time capacity. I wasn’t entirely happy in my role. And that was pretty much a feeling that I’d had from day one when I’d rejoined. And I’d sort of managed to get some traction in my role with working on some of my technology sort of experiences and skillsets. And working on projects within that sort of environment to basically make a contribution to the team. But there was always doubts in my mind as to whether I’d done the right thing, mainly because I felt like I’d worked in banking and finance for such a long period of time. And I sort of always wondered what else was out there.

Andrew:

So, there was a number of events that sort of led me to a particular point. And I was virtually looking for roles outside NAB at the time. So, I thought the way to actually try and improve my chances was to get onto LinkedIn and start updating my profile and just basically exploring the opportunities that sort of do present through there.

Grant Williams:

So, sorry to interrupt.

Andrew:

No, you’re right.

Grant Williams:

But you said your return to NAB. Does that mean you have had two stints at NAB? And was your initial entry into banking the school, university, do economics or accounting or finance and then straight into banking? Or did you have a different pathway?

Andrew:

A completely different pathway. So, you’re right. I mean, I was at school and I was in the country, a little country lad. And my dad had moved up to Western Victoria and we were living in Maryborough. And mom had wanted to move up to where dad was. So, she basically went into the local NAB branch at Maryborough and asked them, “Do you have any jobs going?” And luckily enough at the time, they had a part-time role. So, I went for an interview after school one day. And I was in Year 11 at the time, and managed to get the role with NAB. And that sort of basically kick-started everything. So, I was basically straight out of high school, straight into the bank. And I’d worked for them for a few years and basically had to move to the other side of the country when I was about 18. And I left NAB at that time.

Andrew:

But when I was over there, I was working in various sort of casual roles in hotels and that sort of thing, but thought I just needed something a little bit more structured and permanent. So, I went to NAB and had a conversation over a coffee and ended up working for them. And that stint basically took me through to the 27 years. and part of that time was also with IBM as part of a transitional retrenchment. So, I ended up … It was effectively counted as NAB service, but it was also working for IBM as part of a service provider agreement with NAB.

Grant Williams:

Now, when you went to the other side of the country, so I’m presuming you’re talking about Western Australia.

Andrew:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

So, at that time, going back to NAB, that would have made your parents happy because going into a bank was seen as the safe, reliable option for employment, wasn’t it?

Andrew:

Absolutely. Yeah. In those days, people used to actually like bankers, I think.

Grant Williams:

And Marina, how things have changed.

Marina Pitisano:

Well, it’s a shame, it has definitely changed, because again, what you’re hearing is that it is that start in an organization and have a lifetime in an organization. We’re talking about Andrew having 27 years. You’re not going to have that in today’s society. People are not going to be joining one organization and staying for 30 years. They’re eventually going to have to move around. So, you know, we have a situation here where someone’s been there a long time and is now looking outside. But in today’s world, you can go into an organization and be lucky to get a couple of years up your sleeve before you’re asked to … Before you start thinking about, where do I go? What do I do?

Grant Williams:

The constant need for reskilling and upskilling is a big factor in lots of industries. Is that something that you found limited your chance of any further progression or had an effect on just your personal psyche about wanting to have a change?

Andrew:

Look, I think it was a little bit of both. So, working in technology, you get the opportunity to work across different teams, different roles. And you get exposure to maybe different programming languages or different sort of disciplines within a technology world. So, I sort of had that opportunity to move around and actually work across different roles and build different skillsets. And things that sort of helped develop just my technical experience, I guess. But the thing, what I found was, going back to NAB, I was doing a lot of similar things to what I’d been doing for 27 years, but in a business side of the … or on the business side of the world.

Andrew:

And it just wasn’t sort of sitting comfortably with me at the time and I wasn’t happy. And that’s when I … We were talking about LinkedIn before. I did start to pick up on some of … or a lot of Marina’s posts on LinkedIn about how career coaching can actually help you. And I thought, you know what? I’d read a lot about other people working with career coaches to help them achieve their goals or whatever changes that they wanted to apply. So, I thought, “You know what? Let’s reach out and have a chat.” Basically, we sort of worked together from that point.

Grant Williams:

So, that point was where you were in a transition program, you mentioned, where you were working for IBM, but under the auspices of-

Andrew:

Sorry, no, that was further back.

Grant Williams:

Way back.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

So, you’re back working full on in NAB.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And you’ve just decided it’s time for a change.

Andrew:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I’d been wearing pretty much the same colored badge for a long time. So, you know, some of the people I got along really well with. But there were different factors in making me think that I needed to actually explore other opportunities or other industries. And that’s when I reached out to Marina because I thought, “You know what? If I stay put, basically going to feel that way for the next 10-20 years or whatever. So, what have I got to lose?” So, when I reached out to Marina, we had a chat and hit it off pretty well. And actually, more than pretty well. We get along really well. And I felt instantly comfortable working with Marina and sort of felt like I’d made the right decision at that point.

Grant Williams:

So, Marina, what was the action plan?

Marina Pitisano:

Just before I answer that, I just want to pick up a few things Andrew said, and it’s something you asked about upskilling. It’s interesting in today’s market, I think there’s something about today’s market which is really necessary is that people really need to look at upskilling themselves because we’ve got future of work coming in.

Grant Williams:

And can I just sort of define upskilling the way I used it?

Marina Pitisano:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Because a lot of people think, “It means that if I’ve got a degree, I’ve then got to get a Masters,” and whatnot. And I’m not using the term in that way. What I’m thinking is if you can’t manage your own social media profile and your own social media presence, and you’re looking to be anything but an entry level employee now, well then you’d better go and learn about what the social media platforms are and how to use them and how not to get into trouble on them, because they’re the kinds of things now that everybody expects you to know how to do. Can you write in a way that can make sense on a business website? If you can’t, you’ve got to go and learn it because that’s what you need to have. And that’s what I mean by upskilling. You don’t need to be-

Marina Pitisano:

No, and I’m on the same wavelength as you. Upskilling doesn’t mean that you have to do from a Bachelor to an Honors to a Post Graduate, to a Masters, you don’t need to go through that. There are times where maybe you might need to, depending if you’re level … If you’re a senior role.

Grant Williams:

And that’s occupation specific, really.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, it depends on the roles that you’re in. But Andrew belongs to technology, you know? What’s happening in the market at the moment around technology is Agile learning, is machine learning, is all this … It’s an economy. So, you need to understand all that because it’s going to impact you. So, you need to go and learn. There’s short courses. People are moving in … People might want to move into project management, so they actually need to go and do a project management course. So, we’re not talking … We’re talking about actually specific skills that you might need to improve on and go back and upskill that. And that’s really important because you really need to look at in the next 5-10 years, the jobs that we have today might not exist. And I mean, Andrew works in that whole economy where what systems he’s using today might not exist in five or 10 years’ time, which means that you need to upskill today for those jobs of the future.

Marina Pitisano:

So, what Andrew was talking about and what you mentioned is really critical. So, that’s one thing that … That is one area we touch on when we are working with our clients or when I work with my client is, do we need to upskill? And recently, we had a situation where one of my clients is really wanting to move into business process improvement. So, we’re looking at Six Sigma, we’re looking at Lean, we’re looking at PMBOK, we’re looking at all these new Agile … All these new ways of managing projects that you’ll need to learn.

Marina Pitisano:

The other thing that was interesting about what Andrew just mentioned is that people can be in jobs for a long time but not be happy in them. And so, they decide for some reason to continue to stay in them. And I give Andrew a lot of credit. I mean, he could have just waited to get a payout, do you know what I mean? It’s 27 years. So, he could have waited and thought, “I’ll just die here until I get that payout.” He might have got a payout in the past. But you know, so I think people think that reaching out to a career coach is all about, “I might have to change my job,” or, “I might have to move out of my area.” But career coaching is more about, how are you enjoying your job? What are you doing currently? And is there an action plan that we can create that maybe might improve your skills or change your skills and prepare you for the future?

Marina Pitisano:

So, the action plan with Andrew, going back to your question, in his case, Andrew was really job searching. He really wanted to move out of NAB. He’s got specific skills, which I’ll let Andrew go through if you want to. He’s got specific skills and we were looking for the roles that had those skills. And it was more about what does the application look like when we were applying for these roles? Because they were quite technical, and he needed to have that knowledge. And the big thing, the action plan for Andrew was also about interviewing, you know? He hadn’t been to an interview for many, many years. And he was probably not aware of what the type of interviews were out there.

Marina Pitisano:

Andrew went through a panel interview, where there were three people, which we still start laughing. We laugh about it today. But it was a grilling interview. It was really … Like, it was nearly two hours. And we had to really prepare for that interview because he’s never been through that. At NAB, things work very differently at NAB. You’re lucky to have a conversation with a manager. If you’re part of the internal process, you go in for a quick chat with one of the managers or you ask a few questions. They have a history about you, they use that history. They add two and two and sometimes they get there. But not when you’re in the marketplace and you’re looking at large organizations in senior roles.

Marina Pitisano:

You need to be really fully prepared. So, it was how we’re going to apply. And my approach today with all my clients is that you need to have … You can’t have just one job strategy, you have to have a variety of strategies when you’re job hunting. Andrew mentioned LinkedIn applications, networking. So, there’s quite a few. And we actually outlined all of them and what we were going to do in each one.

Grant Williams:

Andrew, can I ask, drawing out on what Marina said about assessing your job skills? It’s a horrible term, but it’s that personal assessment you have to make about what can you do? What are you prepared to do? How much did that weigh on your decision to actually leave? And were you at the same time tossing up that, “Could get a payout, and it could be quite a lot,” or, “I’m not happy here at all. I’ve just got to go.”

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

Just-

Andrew:

Maybe, sorry, I’ll just perhaps … Can I correct that?

Grant Williams:

Sure.

Andrew:

So, I had the payout from IBM. So, we were in a pretty good position anyway. But I’d gone back to NAB and then was-

Grant Williams:

So, you had a long runway as they like to say now.

Andrew:

Absolutely, yeah, that’s right. Yeah, and some of our circumstances just sort of led me back to feeling that I actually had to work. Probably at the time, I felt like I wanted to take a little bit of time just to freshen up and explore what opportunities were out there. And circumstances sort of changed pretty quickly for us through family. And it sort of made me change my mindset, which hindsight’s a marvelous thing. I wish I hadn’t have.

Grant Williams:

How long ago was this, by the way?

Andrew:

This was probably … Well, I finished up with IBM in 2015.

Grant Williams:

Okay, so it’s recent history.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

I’m going to assume you’ve got a family.

Andrew:

Yep.

Grant Williams:

So, these decisions can’t be made just by you. There’s a whole swag of people that need to be considered. So, did you find any external pressure to stay in banking?

Andrew:

Probably not directly from wife and kids. My kids are a little bit older now. So, my son’s out of home and my daughter’s at uni now. So, she would have been … In 15, she would have been in Year 12 in 2015. So, I didn’t have that sort of expectation that we’ve got kids at school for the next 10 years sort of thing. So, I think the way I felt, I still would have made the same decisions, you know? It’s one of those things, we certainly talked a lot about it at home. And my wife was really supportive of me to make that change because she could see how it was affecting me at home. And so, I don’t think it was a hard decision to make.

Andrew:

And my kids, they don’t mind. As long as we’re happy and we try and just keep it sort of fairly relaxed at home and just make sure that we don’t bring our sort of work lives home in a negative way. And they were really supportive of me actually getting out and exploring new opportunities. And I think they were happy for me to go out and try going to a panel interview. And then I could talk to them about sort of some of the questions and the way that we handled those situations, because in the not too distant future they were, or they did, go and have an interview themselves.

Grant Williams:

So, you got the payout from leaving the corporate world.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And you’ve taken some time.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And the family’s onboard.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

What was your job or occupation or role that you really desired to get into at that stage?

Andrew:

Look, I think I was just willing to get out of banking in general. So, I was looking at various organizations. So, the technology skillsets that I have, I mean, a lot of those … Well, the main tool that I use is used across banks, telcos, insurance companies, government organizations. So, I felt like the searches were restricted within those towers.

Grant Williams:

And is that a customer management tool?

Andrew:

Well, it’s a data management and analysis tool.

Grant Williams:

Data management. Okay.

Andrew:

Yeah, so it’s very powerful in what it does. But it seems to be more broadly used in the larger organizations.

Grant Williams:

Marina, did you notice I was nodding like I knew what he was talking about?

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, and I was wondering, “You don’t know what he’s talking about.”

Grant Williams:

Hang on.

Andrew:

We’re using product placements here.

Grant Williams:

I thought about throwing in SQL as a term and seeing if that got a nod.

Marina Pitisano:

No, well-

Andrew:

It’s one of, yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

It’s one of. It’s one of.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

But, yeah. No, you’re good.

Andrew:

Can I use it?

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, I think you’re good.

Andrew:

It’s SAS.

Marina Pitisano:

It’s SAS.

Andrew:

SAS is the word. Yeah.

Grant Williams:

Software as a service.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah.

Andrew:

No, it’s actually statistical analysis system.

Grant Williams:

So, there’s two types of SAS?

Andrew:

Yeah, but SAS can sit on a software as a service platform. Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah.

Andrew:

So, you know, it’s really powerful in what it can do, but there’s many different elements to it.

Grant Williams:

What’s the competition like for that role that you wanted for yourself?

Andrew:

I think it’s highly competitive. And that was the challenge that I had. I felt like I had a reasonable skillset, quite a lot of experience that I could draw on. But how could I actually get that onto paper, for example, or into some sort of format that would actually make a recruiter look at my profile or my stuff and actually want to have a chat with me? So, that’s where-

Grant Williams:

So, how hard was it to whip him into shape?

Marina Pitisano:

No, no. Andrew was not hard to whip into shape at all. And it was interesting because I am sitting here thinking, a lot of people can generalize and say that men won’t reach out for help, you know? They always say that it’s more women that will reach out. And that’s why I really wanted Andrew to join us because you can hear that if he needed help or he wanted some advice, support, and guidance, he was quite happy to reach out. And I think people that generalize about men and women really need to stop doing that because men in the market today, if they need help, they will reach out and get it.

Grant Williams:

It’s something I seem to pick up about you, Andrew, is that you were in a good place when you wanted to make the change. It didn’t feel like you were tethered to that job, you didn’t have options, financial pressures were meaning you couldn’t leave. So, it’s a really different head space that Andrew would have been in, I’m assuming, than some of the other people that we’ve spoken to.

Marina Pitisano:

And that’s really interesting because, yes, Andrew was in a good space. But what was the confusing part was, if I want to transfer, move, or move into another industry, another role, I really don’t know how to … I don’t really know how to project myself and I really don’t know how to talk myself up. Andrew’s quite, and you can hear, Andrew’s quite a modest man, you know? Has amazing skills, quite technical, and is quite senior. However, it’s about, how do I deliver that message both on paper and both face to face in an interview? So, when you’re in a space of, it’s what I want to do, but I don’t know how to do it, I think that’s a really good combination, a good winning combination to be able to be curious about the market, search the market, and be able to find something.

Marina Pitisano:

The other individuals that we’ve had, they were in a different space. They’re finding it difficult. They need to get something different. And that’s a difficult place to work from because it comes from a desperation of, I can’t be here anymore. We still arrive at the same destination. But it’s just a lot more emotionally intense.

Grant Williams:

Yeah, a really different measure of internal pressure on the decisions you make.

Marina Pitisano:

Exactly. Exactly. However, it’s just managing those situations and those attitudes and how people … That emotional rollercoaster. It’s my role to be able to manage that carefully, depending on where they’re at.

Grant Williams:

So, let me ask each of you the same question. What had to be done?

Andrew:

You go.

Marina Pitisano:

You can go first, Andrew.

Andrew:

No.

Marina Pitisano:

I need to hear what you have to say.

Grant Williams:

Well, neither of them wants to answer.

Marina Pitisano:

No, I know what had to be done. But it’d be interesting to see what Andrew things what had to be done.

Grant Williams:

That’s why I asked it to the two of you.

Marina Pitisano:

I knew what needed to be done, but it’d be interesting what Andrew thinks.

Andrew:

Maybe one of us should go to the silent booth just to-

Marina Pitisano:

I’ll come up with something different if needs be.

Andrew:

But the thing I felt for me personally was that I had skills and experience. But as I was saying before, how do I present that in a written format to get me to a point where I can talk to someone? But then, when I talk to someone, how do I articulate that into a way that answers a question or … Most interviews are usually behavioral event type interviews. So, I think if you try and-

Grant Williams:

And by behavioral event interview, does that mean you’re given a situation and it’s, “How will you react to that situation?”

Andrew:

Yeah. Maybe a challenge that you’ve faced before or a task that you’ve done that’s met a goal or exceeded that expectation. And some of the actions that you might take to actually arrive at that end point. And what were the benefits of those actions? And how did that actually meet the actual requirement? So, that was the thing that … I mean, for me it was really powerful in the way that we worked together on developing those answers to tackle those sorts of questions. But also just in the way of structuring the answers so it came across as not being too scripted. I felt really scripted at the start. But then, being more of a conversational sort of answer. And that sort of … It gives you that opportunity to be able to also push questions back to the interviewer and get them to perhaps expand a little bit more on a situation or what they’re actually looking for.

Grant Williams:

Was it difficult from a personal standpoint to recognize all the runs you had on the board? Because what you’re being asked to do is tell someone how good you are, why you’re that good, and how being good has been good for other people or the company. And it’s … Did you have trouble recognizing the skills and the experience you already had?

Andrew:

Yeah, look, I do have trouble talking myself up. It’s just it sits in an uncomfortable place for me. I like to just be fairly quiet and try and be modest, I suppose. I mean, everyone’s got limitations and that sort of thing about what they can do. But you also do good things as well, so that’s what you have to try and draw out and … not sell a dream, but effectively sell yourself as a solution to the problems or the challenges or the requirements of what the recruiter or that person is actually looking for. And you’ve got to be a little bit better than everyone else, obviously, to get a role.

Grant Williams:

So, Marina, how difficult is it to present that positive track record with someone who is being quite modest? Because I’m thinking that anybody who has had an extended corporate career or business career and been in senior roles has a yellow brick road that they can talk about. How hard-

Marina Pitisano:

If they know the yellow brick road. So, I’ll just go back-

Grant Williams:

Yeah, did you have to help Andrew identify the yellow brick road?

Marina Pitisano:

The yellow brick road, yes.

Grant Williams:

That’s really what I’m getting to.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes. So, I’ll just go back to the question that you asked us both, which was, what did we both have to do? Andrew was quite transactional. He went through the transactions that we did. But what I had to do was really encourage or demonstrate or highlight for Andrew, what I needed to do was make him believe and make him understand that he was going to be the best person for the job. And that’s critical because yes, I can give you all the scenarios. Yes, we can go back and find the yellow brick road, look at all the achievements. But until he owned that and believed, “Wow, I did that and I own that. And I can talk about that in a way that is extremely confident. And I can walk into the interview and say, ‘Look, I have the solution to your problem. I am the best person for this job because of these reasons.'” That’s what I have to train my clients to do. And you know, I’m not expecting individuals to walk in and brag and be the [inaudible 00:29:02]. But be strong in themselves.

Marina Pitisano:

I mean, once Andrew grabbed what his yellow brick road looked like and what all the experience he had, and then he was able to talk about it in a way that was comfortable for him, he was himself in the room. He was able to tackle any question that came his way. And he was tested quite a few times in the interview. But because he had prepared, because he understood his achievements, because he owned them and he believed that that was a role that he could go for and that he could add a lot of value, then he was able to transform that interview into being accepted as the person that was going to win the role, versus missing out on the role. And that’s the hardest part of what we do is being able for someone to see I actually deserve it because I’ve got the runs on the board. And I can demonstrate to you what they are, and I can do the same for you.

Grant Williams:

I’m guessing when you went into that interview … And were there more than one? Let’s start with that.

Andrew:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Okay, okay. So, for the first one you went to that you obviously didn’t take up a role from, did you view that interview as a threat? And by the time you got to the one where you did take up a role, that you started to see it as an opportunity? Was there … Had Marina turned your brain around like that?

Andrew:

Yeah, look, I guess I’d had a couple of conversations leading up to when Marina and I started working together. And the preparations that I did weren’t anywhere near to the level of what Marina and I actually talked about and practiced and worked on together. So, I knew it wasn’t working the way I was doing it. But once we started to-

Grant Williams:

Do you want to cough up to what you were doing that didn’t work?

Andrew:

Well, I wasn’t preparing as well as I should have. So, I know my work history. I know what I’ve done. But the way I would present that information probably was, as Marina said, more transactional. So, I did A, B, and C. And this was the result. It doesn’t really articulate what benefit it was to the company or to the team or to other people. So, that was the thing that I had to change around I felt in that interview process. The way that we worked together, it helped me. If you go into a behavioral event interview in any case, whether it’s a one on one or a panel, the way that they ask the questions, you can’t remember thousands of questions and a particular answer for each of those questions.

Andrew:

So, we tackled it a little bit differently. And that was to focus on some of the achievements that I’d actually gotten over the years. And just sort of adapt that to a particular question when it was asked. And that’s sort of listening to the interviewer when they’re talking to you. Understanding, trying to draw out what you think they’re actually trying to ask you.

Grant Williams:

Where they’re going. Yeah.

Andrew:

And then, if you’re not sure, you can actually fire the question back and say, “Do you actually mean … Is this what you’re asking me?”

Grant Williams:

And that’s where the inner confidence comes in.

Andrew:

Yeah. And it becomes more conversational. So, that’s what really helped me, I think. And that was the sort of stuff that Marina and I really practiced a lot. And it gave me a lot of that confidence. But the first panel interview I went to, I walked out of it and I think I went to one of the little cafes on Lonsdale Street and spoke with Marina immediately. And I sort of said, “I felt like it went reasonably well. But there was a couple of questions that I felt like I could have answered better.”

Andrew:

So, in my own mind, I knew or I felt like I knew where I’d probably not quite got the message across as well as I could have. But then, fortune happened or I was a little bit fortunate to get a callback to say they’d had another role, so they wanted to interview me again. So, I went back and had another conversation with the team and with a different panel, of course.

Grant Williams:

Anyone the same on that panel?

Andrew:

No, sorry, just the HR person.

Marina Pitisano:

But you can hear how lovely Andrew is. He said, “I was just fortunate that I got the next one.” Not through all his hard work and all the hard sweat that he put in, “I was just fortunate I got into the next one.”

Grant Williams:

And also, I mean-

Marina Pitisano:

That was really lovely, Andrew. I really liked that, “I was just fortunate.” Just slaved his guts out, but, “I’m fortunate.”

Grant Williams:

That’s true.

Marina Pitisano:

Do you see what I mean?

Grant Williams:

That’s true.

Marina Pitisano:

You see?

Grant Williams:

I also want to lean on the confidence thing a bit because I was involved in panel selection for heads of department in university and stuff like that for a number of roles. And when you’re in that situation, you know? When you’re interviewing 10 people in a day and there’s a whole day set aside and it’s fully catered and everyone’s taking it all super seriously and we’ve got our checklist and our position descriptions, I was staggered that for roles where it’s several hundred thousand dollars in remuneration, how many people who were unsuitable were actually getting to interview. I’m thinking that when you’re in that situation, you’re interview number six or something, they’ve probably seen four where the line’s gone straight through them and gone, “No. No.”

Grant Williams:

So, if you’re able to walk through your own scorecard, paint the picture of your yellow brick road, you’re always in with a good chance. Am I right with that, Marina?

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, you’re right. Absolutely. I love this analogy of yellow brick road. If you know your yellow brick road and-

Grant Williams:

Everyone’s got … Everyone’s walked down a yellow brick road.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, but you have to-

Grant Williams:

Some people can’t look back and see it.

Marina Pitisano:

But you have to remember what the bricks were made of. You have to remember.

Grant Williams:

Some people just see-

Marina Pitisano:

And they don’t.

Grant Williams:

Some people just see that it’s a muddy horse track.

Marina Pitisano:

But do you know, Grant, that there are people that don’t have … Like, they’re in senior roles but they’ve not ever kept their resume up to date. So, if you went to speak to them and said, “What did you do in this year?” Like, even five years ago, they wouldn’t be able to tell you because they can’t remember. They’ve not prepared. They’ve not prepared their resume, they have not kept it up to date.

Grant Williams:

They’re too busy stealing ideas off their team and making their team feel miserable.

Marina Pitisano:

Not all of them. But some of them, maybe. Maybe.

Grant Williams:

But I think now, well, all employment life, I think now, if you’re not looking to change and be better, you’re going to be back working in a shop in Water Gardens or Chadstone or whatnot, because the people skills and the sort of reach out skills and the basic technology skills, everybody needs to have now, are not easy to collect if you don’t try and collect them.

Marina Pitisano:

Absolutely right. And people don’t. And people don’t even know, with what you’ve just expressed, which is what are the technical? What are the personal? What are the behavioral? What are the EQ skills? They don’t even know how to break … What are employability skills? They wouldn’t even know how to break that down because they’ve not spent any time on it. They’re just in the doing. And they need to be able to get out of the doing and start to reflect on what are their skills? And I just want to pick up on something that Andrew said, which was, he went through the interview, he came out. He thought through the questions and he realized there were certain questions that he might not have been as strong in or answered them as well. And I think that is the most critical part of working with a coach, you know? Because it’s understanding where you haven’t done so well. It’s being able to review-

Grant Williams:

On a self evaluation?

Marina Pitisano:

Self evaluate, review. But also be able to say, “Okay, why didn’t we do so well?” And what might have let yourself down? And then be able to look at how we can rebuild that for the next one. When you’re on your own and you’re in this sea of applications, applying, going in for interviews, not getting any feedback, you really are stuck on, well, I don’t know what to do more. I don’t know what to do better. I can self reflect and I can pick that up. But how do I actually do better? I don’t know what the solution is. And I think that’s why you need to work with someone. That’s why people have business coaches. That’s why people have gym instructors. That’s why people have naturopaths that help them with health issues, because you need someone of an expert to be able to sit with you and say, “Okay, let’s reflect on that. Why did you feel you didn’t do so well? And let’s look at what we now need to implement for the next time if you get confronted with that.” And we come up with another action plan on how to deal with that.

Grant Williams:

So, Andrew, how long was the process of deciding you wanted to leave and you got in touch with Marina some time after that, but deciding you wanted to leave, taking the action, and then securing the role you wanted and that you accepted? How long was that in time?

Andrew:

It was pretty quick, to be honest, Grant. I think, look, I was unhappy for quite some time in NAB. And there was a particular conversation that I’d had with someone. And I thought, “You know what? That’s actually the straw that broke the camel’s back.” So, I made that call at that particular time, okay, I’m going to get out, do something different. So, Marina and I, I think we’d already engaged and had a little bit of dialogue through at least LinkedIn. But pretty much from that point in time when we’d had that conversation at work, Marina and I started working together. But I think we were probably six weeks, I reckon.

Marina Pitisano:

Yep, it was a couple of months. It was about two months. Yeah. He was wonderful. He was a great one because-

Andrew:

It didn’t take long. I mean, but-

Marina Pitisano:

But I think for all … But for Andrew, he went to a role … We created the resume, we did the application. We sent it into … I mean, the company that he won the role with, they would have had about 50-100 applications. It was a senior role. He was the top two, top three.

Andrew:

Yeah, I was down to the last few. Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Yep, so he was interviewed. The first interview was top three. And then, the second interview, I think you were the only one that they were really working with. And if he got through that, then the job was his. So, that’s what we had to go through.

Grant Williams:

And was this the role where you didn’t get it and then they contacted you about another role?

Andrew:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Okay. So, if that had have been me, smug bastard that I am, having been contacted and called in, you know you’re number one or two or three. You’ve just got to know it because, geez, they’ve already read 500 resumes. They’ve sorted through. They’ve had a look at 100 closely. They’ve decided to interview 10 and then they’ve called me. I mean, good on you.

Andrew:

It’s a nice situation to be in.

Grant Williams:

Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew:

Yeah. As I said, I felt fortunate in that position or to be in that position. But you know, you still have to go through that process. And if you walk in and you’re too smug with your answers or something-

Grant Williams:

Well, you can’t be me. You can’t be a smug bastard.

Andrew:

No, exactly. Yeah, you’ve still got to present in the way that you would have, even if you were still in the pack, if that makes sense.

Grant Williams:

What I did want to ask you, knowing that extra information, did you approach that second panel of evaluation in a different frame of mind than the one immediately previous?

Andrew:

I think I was probably a little bit more comfortable and in a more relaxed mindset. You know, I still had worked through all the different scenarios, all the answers, that sort of thing. But because I had been through that experience before, walking into the next one, it made it a lot easier. And because they were relatively close together, I felt like I could be more conversational and natural in that environment. So, the dialogue was pretty relaxed. I mean, we still had our questions and that sort of thing. But we were getting some smiles around the table and had a little bit of interaction between the team, or between the panel. It seemed to just work quite well.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, the second interview is always very different to the first. So, the first interview is really, really … In most cases, be it a senior role, even a junior role, the first interview is quite grilling. I mean, they ask all … They could be direct questions, they could be technical questions, they can be behavioral event questions. It all depends who’s in the room. So, if there is a HR person in the room, you’ll know there’s behavioral. And we discussed that. So, anyone that goes for an interview has to know who’s in that room and actually should do some research on who’s going to interview you.

Grant Williams:

Can you ask before your interview who is going to interview you?

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, we always do.

Grant Williams:

Okay.

Marina Pitisano:

That is a thing that I always ask my clients to think about. Find out who’s … You must know who’s in the interview because then I am able to say … Because if there’s two financial controllers or two head of ITs or two technical people, I can assure you they want technical information, so you better know your stuff. If there’s a HR person, it’s usually behavioral event, “Tell me about a time you did this. Tell me about a time you’ve done that.” So, you have to be able to prepare for both. But when it comes to the second interview, so if you got through the first, the second interview is all about cultural fit.

Grant Williams:

The first interview is, can this guy do the job that we are looking for? Tick. Do we think he’s going to fit in? Maybe.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

Then you have your next interview, and that’s where they find out if you fit into the company.

Marina Pitisano:

And that is a hard one because it’s your personality. How are you going to show that you can fit into the company? Because it all depends on your attributes, your values, and how you’re going to sit in that interview.

Grant Williams:

It also depends what’s important to the company, because a lot of companies are only going to care about, what do you add to the bottom line? As long as you’re not going to make life difficult for the people around you. But you can make the most wins, and you can identify how to get them, that’s probably going to get you over the line.

Andrew:

True.

Grant Williams:

But a lot of companies want people who won’t push the envelope, won’t rock the boat.

Marina Pitisano:

However, we can find out. So, the way … What’s interesting, and this is where I work very closely with my clients and we spend a lot of time is we glean a lot from the first interview. So, we learnt a lot about the types of questions they asked, what were they really looking for? Because you can tell by the questions they ask. What did Andrew spend a lot of time in on the interviews? And the ones that he didn’t feel he was very comfortable, who were the individuals that he’s now going to report to? And we did a lot of research on what was important to them.

Marina Pitisano:

And through the first interview, you glean a lot of information around, what is it that you’ll have to really present well in the second interview to be able to then win them over. So, again, that’s not something you’ll know if you work on your own. I mean, I’ve got 15 years of HR background, I’ve been doing this role for a long time. I’m able to say, “Okay, they’re going to look at wanting this sort of person having this sort of background with this information. We need to stress these points a lot more in the second interview,” which is what Andrew did.

Marina Pitisano:

So, when he went into the second interview, he stressed some really … Like, you stressed a lot about SAS and technical, remember?

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

You really had to stress.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Because remember, there was a lot of questions about, “But can you do this? And can you do that?” And you had to be really … He had to be really prepared to go down to the nitty gritties because his manager was in the interview and he wanted technical, technical information. And Andrew was prepared for that. And because he was comfortable, he just delivered it.

Grant Williams:

And I’m guessing an interview that takes that kind of tack tells you that you don’t have a team of 15 below you who can support you on a technical level. You’re going to have to be hands on. You’re the technical guy.

Andrew:

True. Yes.

Marina Pitisano:

Correct. And the other thing is, is that … Just another thing that’s really important. And it was important in Andrew’s case. I’m not sure if Andrew … What it was, was that it’s the questions you also ask at the end of the interview. And I always have the controversial questions. So, a-

Grant Williams:

Okay, what are they?

Marina Pitisano:

A controversial question is, what is … So, you’ve got people in the panel and you know what maybe X and Y is going to be your manager. You actually ask them what their management style is. So, therefore … And I’ve had many of my clients ask that question, “What is your management style?” And they’ve actually had to look at each other. They’ve literally stopped and looked at each other and thought, “What do we actually answer here?” Because it’s a two-way conversation.

Grant Williams:

Can you ask a question like, “What’s the employee churn in this department over the last 12 months?”

Marina Pitisano:

Perfect. Yes. You know, we talk about what is the culture? But-

Grant Williams:

Do they answer that honestly? Or do they fudge?

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, no. I think they do answer it honestly. They actually will tell you. One of my clients said, “What is the turnover?” And they actually had to say that the role that person was going for was turning over a lot, had turned over a lot.

Grant Williams:

And can you ask the question.

Marina Pitisano:

And the reason why-

Grant Williams:

Yeah, can you ask the question why?

Marina Pitisano:

Yep. Yep, and they told her. They told her. It was just-

Grant Williams:

What’s deficient in your management of this department that is causing this churn?

Marina Pitisano:

No, that’s an agenda question, you know? What is it in your management style that’s causing … But why it’s really important, I cannot believe how many people … And I’m not sure, I don’t remember what your controversial question was because I have a few. What was interesting is they all stop and they stare at each other and thing, “I wasn’t expecting that answer.” One leader turned around and said, “That’s an interesting … How do you like to be managed?” They turned it back.

Andrew:

Yes, yes.

Marina Pitisano:

They turned it back on the individual, remember?

Andrew:

I think it happened to me.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, exactly.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

How do you like to be managed?

Andrew:

How do you respond to it or which management style?

Marina Pitisano:

Exactly.

Grant Williams:

Well, I hope someone higher than them was in the interview and going, “Well, I think we’ve just found a new department head.”

Andrew:

Well, you never know. I mean, those sorts of [crosstalk 00:48:41]-

Marina Pitisano:

And another question was really good which game up the other day is, is there any area that I have not discussed or highlighted enough for you today that I need to expand on so that you will then think I will be a successful candidate for the role?

Andrew:

Yes. Pretty much how I closed off.

Grant Williams:

Do you have like a list of four or five questions that you always go to in this?

Marina Pitisano:

No, I don’t. I don’t have all the same. It all depends, because the questions Andrew asked were very specific to what he was going for. Depending on the role, there’s always a controversial question. But there’s always four or five key questions, depending on the role, because sometimes you need to know your onboarding. Sometimes you need to know, you want professional development, really depends. I mean, Andrew was not going to talk about professional development because he’s got to go in as a technical expert. So, he had to go in … So, if you say, “Well, what’s the professional development?” They’re going to be like, “You’re the technical expert. We’re buying you.”

Grant Williams:

But isn’t that almost the same question as saying, “What are the prospects for advancement within the company?”

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, but it just depend son where you’re at. Like, Andrew’s going in at a senior level. The expectation for that would be that he would be there for a couple of years. He might not even have another level because he’s quite senior. The next level would be you, the boss.

Grant Williams:

Well, there’s the board. That’s right.

Marina Pitisano:

Right? So, you sort of don’t want to ask that question because you really want to understand how you’re going to work in that environment, what support you’re going to have in that environment, how you’re going to work with that manager, what’s the strategy? Whereas, more junior roles, they might want to know about advancement, they might want to know about professional development. So, it just depends on what you’re applying for and where you’re at that you need to pitch your questions.

Grant Williams:

So, Andrew, it took about six to eight weeks to settle yourself into the role that you were happy with.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

Are you still there?

Andrew:

It’s funny you ask that question, Grant. I’ve actually moved on. So, another opportunity sort of presented itself. So, WorkSafe … Can I say that?

Marina Pitisano:

You can take it out if you have to.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

We can say that it’s a government quango. It’s a quango.

Andrew:

So, they changed location and the work location arrangements weren’t entirely suitable. So, I looked around and was approached about a role. And that was at a much more convenient location, better money. But a completely different industry, a completely different challenge and a different skillset. I went and had the interviews. I used the techniques that Marina had taught me and sort of lent heavily on some of that previous workings.

Grant Williams:

Well, they’re skills that you’ve gathered.

Andrew:

Yeah, absolutely.

Grant Williams:

So, they’re not in your toolkit.

Andrew:

Absolutely.

Marina Pitisano:

In your toolkit.

Andrew:

Yep, so I took that to the interviews and-

Grant Williams:

I think I was looking for, is it the quiver that you put your arrows in?

Andrew:

Arrows, yeah.

Grant Williams:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, I could see the arrows coming out. Yeah. And men are hunters, so the arrows work beautifully, yes.

Andrew:

So yeah, I’ve worked over at an oil and gas company for the best part of 13 months now. So, I finished up with those guys pretty shortly. So, the contract has come to an end. So, I’m sort of in some discussions now for the next opportunity.

Grant Williams:

So, the obvious question is, you started off with 27 years in a bank, the secure safe work. And now you’re doing contract to contract to contract.

Andrew:

Yep. It’s refreshing, it’s fun. It’s challenging. I’m learning new things, maybe not technical skills, but I’m certainly learning about the industry that I work in. I’ve met some really good people along the way. And I feel like I’m contributing to those teams and the roles that I have actually worked in.

Grant Williams:

And are most of the opportunities in the field that you want to work in, are they now as a rule contract roles where they’re a defined period?

Andrew:

I think there’s a balance. Yeah, no, there’s definitely a balance. Maybe contract roles are more around midyear, sort of end of year timeframes with budgets and that sort of thing being allocated to particular teams as they need resources. So, it is a little bit cyclical in that way. And elections probably also are a factor there. So, the contractor market’s quite strong within Melbourne, particularly in a technology space. But also in analytics as well. And a lot of the technology tool sets that we use within technology are also transferrable into a business environment. But it’s about articulating how you can bring that technology background to a business environment and actually contribute and get good results for the team.

Grant Williams:

Are there opportunities for someone with your skillset to look at offshoring so you can be located here, but manage teams who are offshore?

Andrew:

Potentially, yeah. I was doing a little bit of that with IBM. And I went to Delhi with a team and we trained up a group of guys over in Delhi to pick up roles and functions within our team. And we transitioned work packages to them and came back and managed them all remotely from Australia. And that was maybe a phone dial up, maybe a screen demonstration, a video conference, or something like that. So, it’s certainly doable. There are challenges around that of course. But yeah, you can do that.

Grant Williams:

So, where do you see yourself within your career in the next five years? That’s one of those good questions, isn’t it? To ask.

Marina Pitisano:

That is one of the questions people can ask.

Andrew:

That’s a little reflective. Look, you know, it really depends on what the next opportunity is. So, I’ve got a couple of conversations going at the moment. And one that I’m really keen on, and it’s working with a health company and integrating a government contract. I’m not sure if it’s … How much commercial in confidence-

Grant Williams:

Yeah, but it’s a technology integration role.

Andrew:

It is, yeah.

Grant Williams:

And I’m guessing that the company that has the contract hasn’t had something like that before, so you’d have to bed one in.

Andrew:

They do some contracts already, but they’ve tendered and won-

Grant Williams:

Won something that they-

Andrew:

[crosstalk 00:55:55] a competitor. And they’re going to integrate that contract into their environment. And there’ll be some technology stuff that needs to happen. But there’ll also be a business aspect and also managing a client type aspect to the role. But that’s a full-time role, actually. So, it’s really interesting to me.

Grant Williams:

So, in your position now, and I don’t mean your work position, but your position as a skilled individual, are you still learning or gathering technical skills? Or are you more gathering people and management skills at this stage in the career?

Andrew:

Look, I like to keep hands on the tools. And with BP, I’ve been fortunate to be able to not have my particular tool sets available to me, so I’ve had to teach myself how to use a new programming language, and plus some other tools as well to help visualize that data and present it back to your management team, stakeholders, and that sort of thing. So, I’ve really enjoyed that part of it. It’s actually made me, maybe not more self aware, but actually stimulated that learning side again. And I’ve really enjoyed that. But I’ve also tried to be more of a coach to some of the admin team within our group and help them develop their skills as well. So, that’s another aspect to the role that I’ve really enjoyed whilst I’ve been over there. But I’ll try and carry that forward and keep on working on both sides. And I guess at some point, I’d like to move into more of a leadership focused role. But I still would also like to be technically challenged as well.

Grant Williams:

Board of directors, here we come.

Marina Pitisano:

But I just wanted to make a few comments about what Andrew just said is that, what’s nice, and maybe you’ve noticed this, Grant, in the few podcasts we’ve done, is that every single one of them is set up for success. So, working with a career coach, or working with me, I think it’s important that if you’re … You know, it’s not just about working with me, but it’s about working with an expert in the field, is that once they learn the tools and once they know what they have to do, they have an appetite for change. So, you know, we’ve met a few along the way that they’ve started out really wanting to get out or not happy in a current role or needing more. And then, once the foundation is built on how to do the job application well, how to interview well, networking and using LinkedIn, all those tools, once you learn that, they become your toolkit for life, where you can just draw back on that. But they also have the appetite to continuously change.

Marina Pitisano:

So, all of a sudden, they’re no longer afraid of being stuck in a job that they don’t like. They’re thinking of other opportunities. They’re looking at either upskilling or now even taking on bigger and better roles. So, I think that’s the important part of having support is being able to be comfortable with change and being comfortable with moving to bigger and better places, and not having that stuck feeling and being stuck, because now they’ve created their toolkit, they know what to do. And they’re continuous. And you’ve heard that through the themes of the podcast that, yes, it was really hard to get out the first, or there was a reason why they had to move. But once they were on their role, they’ve just been able to get bigger and better roles because they’re focusing on that. So, I think that’s really critical.

Grant Williams:

Well, it’s that mindset. And it’s really coming through from you, Andrew, that you are looking at change and even feeling stuck as an opportunity, rather than a threat.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And I think when you look at career like that, and it can be any kind of work really, there’s always something positive to move into if you look. But if you’re feeling terror and dread about making a move, or if you’re feeling shackled and you can’t move, I would imagine that that’s how you start to think, “I don’t know anything. It’s 25 years since I went to college and I don’t know anything.”

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, it’s all that dread.

Grant Williams:

That’s right. And really, if you look around what you do in your day to day life, everyone’s got heaps and heaps of marketable skills, but they just have to recognize them. And I think it’s been great hearing Andrew moving obviously forward and ever upward and not feeling like you’re being bashed around by a big corporate bully, because a lot of people in work feel like that.

Marina Pitisano:

And I think the other thing that’s important, and I don’t want to … I’m not going to … I can’t think of the word, expose it. But Andrew’s not a young man. He’s not in his 20s or his 30s, are you?

Andrew:

No.

Marina Pitisano:

Right. So, he’s a mature man who sees the world as his oyster and thinks … You know, he’s now doing contract work and he’s comfortable with it and he loves it and he can see the purpose of it. And that means age is not a barrier. Age has got nothing to do with it.

Grant Williams:

You’re also a realist, aren’t you, Andrew?

Andrew:

I’d like to think so, yes.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes, he is.

Grant Williams:

You can’t go back and sit in your office and go, “I’m going to wait for the next open ended tenure position that I walk into and it’s a 20% increase in salary.” I mean, those days are gone.

Andrew:

Yeah, absolutely.

Grant Williams:

And that’s why I asked you about feeling comfortable about contracting, because-

Andrew:

It’s not just about the money, it’s also about learning and development opportunities. But the money will come as you build your experience and you get your skillsets up and you diversify and demonstrate what you can bring to a company. And I think the rewards sort of flow from that.

Grant Williams:

Yeah, definitely.

Andrew:

You know, it’d be nice to, as I say, want for the contract opportunities to come with lots of dollars. But with the dollars also, there’s risk, and there’s also pressure.

Grant Williams:

And contracting’s highly competitive.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

And it’s results oriented, but you don’t get five years to prove yourself. You might get six months to move the needle on whatever they want.

Andrew:

A lot of contracts start at three months now. And that’s more almost … I think that’s almost the standard in a lot of opportunities. But you know, the six month contract is actually a nice sort of time. My most recent contract was 12 months, so I was really fortunate to come across that and glad I made that jump to do it.

Grant Williams:

Actually, that leads me to a question that is maybe difficult to answer. But were you clear about how you would be assessed in the role? Like, if it’s three months is the time period now, are you clear about how you will be evaluated in that short time period before you take the role?

Andrew:

To be honest, when I walked in there, I felt that I had some clear goals. And the goalposts shifted as the contract developed. And to be honest, it was a fairly fluid sort of environment and role. So, a lot of the expectations were around delivering as the goalposts moved. And that made it really challenging, but also interesting to be able to try and respond and meet the challenges and requirements that were coming through. But once you get past that three months stage, you’ve got enough time in the organization to have your-

Grant Williams:

You’re familiar with how things work.

Andrew:

Exactly.

Grant Williams:

You should know how you’re going to be judged, yeah.

Andrew:

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And then it allows you time to develop.

Grant Williams:

Evaluated.

Andrew:

Hopefully you get that time to be able to develop responses to situations and start to get some wins on the board. Help the team sort of move forward and get past a lot of the challenges that they might be facing.

Grant Williams:

Marina, how positive was Andrew when you first met him? Is he a far more positive man now than when you first met him?

Marina Pitisano:

It’s a hard one because Andrew’s a lovely man. But listening to him now, I’m beaming. I feel very proud. It’s like these are my children, in the sense that when I first met Andrew, he was just … There was more a lack of confidence. And also this lack of confidence or this lack of direction of what’s possible and where could I go?

Grant Williams:

Is that a focus thing?

Marina Pitisano:

It wasn’t just a focus. It wasn’t just a focus because he knew what he wanted to do, but he just didn’t know whether it was possible. Now, having the opportunity to have moved from one organization to another. Then I like the fact that he took control and took charge and thought, “It’s probably not the best ideal situation for me. So, I know what I have to do. I’ll just get back out there. I’ll get back on the horse and now try it again. I did it once, I can do it again.” So, that self belief, that self confidence, that I can do it came through. And then, being able to win that and then realizing, “I actually like it here. I actually think these are really good opportunities. It meets my skillset. It meets my needs and I can do this,” is now like looking for more. So, from the person that I met maybe a couple of years ago, which was, “Do you think I can get out? Do you think I can get another job?” To, “Not a problem. I’m just moving onto the next one,” is just really, really love to watch that real difference in journey.

Grant Williams:

So, as we get to basically the end of our time, you get to ask the one, two, or three questions that we haven’t asked yet.

Marina Pitisano:

Okay.

Andrew:

The difficult questions.

Grant Williams:

The difficult questions. Well, I’m sure there’s something I’ve missed, I’m sure.

Marina Pitisano:

Well, the only question I’d like to ask is, Andrew, when you think back of the last couple of years, what do you think … What was the key ingredient that made you successful? What was it that you felt that because I got that right, or I had that approach, or this was what I focused on, what actually got you to be where you are today? What was that one or two things?

Andrew:

That is a challenging question, thank you.

Marina Pitisano:

I told you I always have the controversial questions up my sleeve.

Andrew:

Look, to be honest, I think a lot of what we worked on, I sort of felt like I had some of what we worked on. But I think the polish that you helped put onto those areas that I felt I thought I was okay, that really changed the way I thought about myself. And it brought out my own … A little bit more confidence when I’m in maybe an interview or whether I’m applying for a role or speaking with a recruiter. I like that you helped me understand it’s okay to reach out to people who are advertising roles and they might have their details. I sort of take that almost as an open invitation to pick up the phone and have a chat. That role may not be particularly suited for me, so if I’ve got someone in my network, connect them and link them in literally. So, I like to do that where I can.

Andrew:

But I think for me personally, the way that we work together, the confidence that I got from doing a lot of the one on one sessions with Marina, that really helped me when I went to an interview situation. And I wouldn’t say I feel totally comfortable in that environment. It’s always maybe not nerve wracking. But I know if we follow a process that Marina and I had worked on, and use maybe not the same approach, very similar, I think that puts me in a lot better position to be able to maybe secure the next role. And I feel a lot more confident when I go in there.

Grant Williams:

There’s a coach I know from a different field who says, “Nobody’s going to punch you in the face.” When you go to something and it’s new and whatnot, nobody’s going to punch you in the face. It’s going to be all right.

Marina Pitisano:

It’s not that scary.

Andrew:

They’ll only say no if they don’t like you.

Marina Pitisano:

Exactly.

Grant Williams:

And no is just an opportunity for the next person to say yes.

Andrew:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

I mean, you have to be prepared to follow your yellow brick road and see where you’ve been in the rear vision mirror. And that’s a mindset thing. And I can see you’re extremely positive as a bloke sitting here now. And I just wonder how much you had to chip around the edges.

Andrew:

There was a little bit of chipping away, yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

There was a little bit of chipping, a little bit of chipping.

Andrew:

Reshaping.

Marina Pitisano:

But it’s not hard when the diamond is there, remember that.

Andrew:

I think you’re being too kind.

Marina Pitisano:

No.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

No, I’m not. It’s never too hard when the diamond is there. You just need to chip a little bit and then it uncovers.

Andrew:

Yep.

Grant Williams:

Well-

Marina Pitisano:

Just remember that.

Grant Williams:

Andrew, the diamond, the rough cut diamond.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Thanks for being here with our stone cutter, Marina.

Marina Pitisano:

I love being a stone cutter. That’s a really good one. We come up with all different themes every single time.

Grant Williams:

Well, actually, you’re a gem cutter, because-

Marina Pitisano:

Thank you.

Grant Williams:

Because-

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah, because they’re all different gems.

Grant Williams:

And whenever I say stone cutter, I think of that episode on The Simpsons.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

Have you seen that one?

Andrew:

I haven’t seen that one, no.

Grant Williams:

The royal order of the stone cutters. It was a shocker. But yeah-

Andrew:

I’ll look it up.

Grant Williams:

Well, yeah. It’s worthwhile. Homer’s a beauty in the stone cutters, a play on the … What are they called? The Masons.

Marina Pitisano:

The Masons.

Grant Williams:

Yeah.

Marina Pitisano:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

It’s making fun of The Masons.

Andrew:

Okay.

Marina Pitisano:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

So, thanks again, Marina.

Marina Pitisano:

Thank you, Grant for another great episode.

Grant Williams:

You’ve bought in a … Well, a diamond, a gem. I love the positivity coming out of this man. Thanks very much, Andrew. It’s been a pleasure.

Andrew:

Thanks, Grant. Thanks, Marina for having me.

Marina Pitisano:

Thank you. Thank you.

Andrew:

Yeah, thanks.

Grant Williams:

And all the best in your future steps in your career.

Andrew:

Thank you very much.

 

Read the Transcript

[00:00:00] Grant Williams: Let’s create your career, the podcasts about career development, job search, and getting to, well, you might just want to be in your,

[00:00:09] in your.

[00:00:11] Professional life. It’s not only professional life, but anything, anything to do with being happy at work. I think that’s rounded a bit for this morning I’m Grant Williams.

[00:00:26] I’ll push the buttons and I ask all of the dumb questions. I’m always joined by Marina Pitisano, job search coach Australia, for most jobs that coach Marina, how are you this morning?

[00:00:40] Marina Pitisano: [00:00:40] I’m really, really good. I always laugh when you start introducing me, it’s just getting better and better. Every time we do this.

[00:00:47] So I love that introduction. And I would like to introduce Sarah today. Sarah has been one of my clients for the last, probably couple of months. It hasn’t been too long as it, Sarah. That’s right. Go on. It’s

[00:01:07] Sarah: [00:01:07] been very good, very pleasant to meet you at this time and still is.

[00:01:12] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:12] So we’ll be able to get through her journey about, looking for jobs.

[00:01:16] What happened to her, with her, with her previous role and just what we did together to get her into a fabulous role that she’s about to start.

[00:01:29] Grant Williams: [00:01:29] Sarah. You [00:01:30] just mentioned that it’s only been a couple of months that you’ve been in Marina’s orbits. Let’s talk about how you, how you came across Marina. did you

[00:01:40] how did you find out about Marina? How did you decide, or did somebody tell you that you needed to speak to Marina? Cause I’m guessing the point of talking to Marina is to find a new role. So w were you

[00:01:53] Sarah: [00:01:53] in a role? So I had ended, my position and I had ended, also ended my maternity leave and I just thought it was time to, Seek a new role.

[00:02:05] Cause I’d been in that position for 10 years. And after having three kids, I’ve reassessed my life and I thought let’s get out of research. Let’s do something different, but I wasn’t successful at looking at even getting interviewed. And I was chatting to a lot of my friends and one of my closest friends mentioned Marina and.

[00:02:29] I sort of brushed off like the first two weeks and I thought, Oh, I’m not getting anywhere. So I called her up and said, Hey, you really need to talk to Marina. And she has  she’s okay. Cause that helps you and coaches you in looking for a job and that’s how it got the ball rolling in my head. And then I contact.

[00:02:45] Yeah. Marina

[00:02:48] Grant Williams: [00:02:48] sarah, I’m thinking that a lot of people are going to be like money. Like here, they hear you say something like I had, I had a role in research and I wanted to change. Tell me about what. What [00:03:00] kind of role you were doing in research and how specialists use it and what kind of opportunities are there for people?

[00:03:10] Sarah: [00:03:10] Well, I was, I’m a senior research officer at a, an Institute and my niche I’m sort of at the higher end of my, My job description. And I, I looked at, specific proteins and most skills are very specific. So it’s quite a niche field. And I had been in that position for 10 years and I only knew well that’s for 10 years, so, Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know what else to say.

[00:03:40] Grant Williams: [00:03:40] It is it, is it a, a field sort of, I think people think of you, you’re in a lab with test tubes and pumps and burners going and, and, and what coats and all that, or, or is it, is statistical analysis a big part of the role? Is it, is it always focused around medical work?

[00:04:01] And can you give us a sense of what someone is, as a, what was it senior research analyst would, would be doing.

[00:04:10] Sarah: [00:04:10] So I would do your Bunsen burners and white coats as well as you were saying. and then I’d also do, I’d supervise students, apply for grants. So, NHMRC, so the government funding, grant schemes, as well as philanthropic.

[00:04:25] So I’d be writing as well as creating my own experiments, to [00:04:30] find the unknown. Which would then go to grants and in the hope of getting your own money, a nd a lot of that was, looking for my own funding, to continue the research, because I was very interested and also looking for my own salary.

[00:04:44] So it was becoming, quite difficult as much as I loved it. It was just becoming too difficult for me to, sustain and, and I just thought, you know, After being there for 10 years, as well as I was thinking, look as much as you love, it’s time to really step outside the box because maybe there’s something better out there as well.

[00:05:05] Cause you’ve been so honed into that. Experience.

[00:05:08] Marina Pitisano: [00:05:08] So, Sarah, what were you researching? What was your topic of expertise?

[00:05:13] Sarah: [00:05:13] So I was looking at why women, couldn’t couldn’t conceive. So I was looking at specific proteins in, in women, that weren’t able to, too. So why women implant the embryo onto the uterus?

[00:05:28] So the lining of the, the lining called the uterus. so I was looking at specific interactions in that field. Yeah.

[00:05:37] Marina Pitisano: [00:05:37] Very specific research analyst.

[00:05:41] Grant Williams: [00:05:41] What I’m picking up from this Marina is that hold on, Sarah is doing all the science stuff. So, so we go, we just take it as Ray. You’re a skilled scientist in medical research.

[00:05:55] Hmm. But what I heard was that a large part of a, an [00:06:00] analyst role. His paperwork, his admin is, is making sure that you can write in a style that ticks all the boxes for somebody who is not assigned just to put you in a pile to, for them, just to look at your application and go, yeah, we’ll give this a go.

[00:06:21] There’s got to get through a bureaucrat. It’s got to get through a whole lot of technical admin people before it gets. Yes. To a panel who tick it off. So Marina. You weren’t just dealing with someone who’s, you’re dealing with someone who’s really good with process. I’m guessing.

[00:06:41] Marina Pitisano: [00:06:41] Well, Sarah is fantastic on many accounts, she’s a very humble person, but, Sarah has to deal with her research, her expertise.

[00:06:51]as you heard, and we’ve always laugh because when she goes to talk about her technical experience, she hopes to get a little bit confused and I would cited there. Your technically experienced, did I know, but I just wanted a little bit difficult to express that. So she had to check nickel experience.

[00:07:11] So she did the research, she did the experiments, but not only that, she also had to lead a team of students to do these experiments and other scientists. She also had to write grants because the research that she was doing [00:07:30] required money from the government. And as we all know, you’re not going to get that money unless you can justify through a grant or why you deserve X amount of dollars.

[00:07:42] And in that grant rowdy, she also had to determine that money that came to her. Also had to pay her salary. So there was a lot on the line for Sarah all the time, but not just that she’s written many scientific papers. So she is well versed in her art and in her, in her expertise, because at, her Institute, her requirement is also to demonstrate what she’s learning and put that in technical papers that other scientists read.

[00:08:14] So she’s, she’s got, she’s got a very wide range of skills and experience and, and capabilities that you know, would make any future employer, a great, a great worker and a great employee.

[00:08:32] Grant Williams: [00:08:32] So we need to refer to Sarah as Sarah L

[00:08:43] Sarah: [00:08:43] as well.

[00:08:45] Marina Pitisano: [00:08:45] She does have that

[00:08:48] Grant Williams: [00:08:48] science reference jokes for those.

[00:08:55] Marina Pitisano: [00:08:55] Got it.

[00:08:57] Grant Williams: [00:08:57] Yeah, I was looking, but I was looking for that, [00:09:00] correct?

[00:09:03] Sarah: [00:09:03] Yeah.

[00:09:05] Grant Williams: [00:09:05] Sarah you, was it a hard decision to come to the end of the contract? And actually then let’s first talk about

[00:09:14] Marina Pitisano: [00:09:14] that.

[00:09:16] Grant Williams: [00:09:16] It’s a precarious existence by the sound of it that you’ll, you’re rolling from grant to grant that your employment doesn’t roll on it’s wholly and solely dependent on you.

[00:09:29] Being able to attract new new funding. Is that how it goes?

[00:09:33] Sarah: [00:09:33] Correct it and it’s each year, each year you play. Yeah. Yeah, probably around that November, December, you played back the whole last year scenario of it to start thinking of new grants, new themes or new projects, they’ve got to think of, preparing for a grant and also getting to prepare the experiments for the grant.

[00:09:56] It’s put into the grads as a whole process that goes every year. And I think after 10 years, your body just says, okay, it’s time. It’s time.

[00:10:07] Grant Williams: [00:10:07] If you’ve got to prepare the experiments. So you’ve got to design them and sort of work out the, the resources required. You have to sort of okay. A fair bit of the work before, you know,

[00:10:24] Sarah: [00:10:24] Yes, it’s it’s and it’s like that for the whole year. Cause you’re prepared things don’t [00:10:30] happen within a month. So you’re pro you preparing for the whole year, all these experiments and hopefully by say October, November, December, you’ve got some Plymouth pull it preliminary data to write the grant. So that’s when your students coming to us, the other staff members maybe just come in to collaborate, will you to write, a good body.

[00:10:53]The project in November, December, January, and February.

[00:10:58] Grant Williams: [00:10:58] Yeah. Very, very stressful.

[00:11:02] Sarah: [00:11:02] Yeah. Yeah. Everyone’s pretty. Okay. Everyone understands what you’re going through because they’re also going through the same thing. So it’s, it is stressful, but everyone’s quiet. They understand, like this is a look that you give each other, like, yeah, I feel sorry for you.

[00:11:17] Let’s let’s like soldier on, and fingers crossed. Let’s get some money for next year, but it’s it’s an unspoken stress. Yeah.

[00:11:30] What was

[00:11:30] Grant Williams: [00:11:30] the, what was the solution to this? Rolling epic stress and preparation that Sarah has had for 10

[00:11:41] Marina Pitisano: [00:11:41] years

[00:11:42] well, I, I, it was a situation where her contracting center had come to an end and she had a choice to either go back and renew the contract and go back into that process of again, doing the scientific [00:12:00] work.

[00:12:00]researching, looking at what was coming out of that body of work, and then present you that into a grant to get more money. And she was just getting to a point that, that routine and that continuous doing the same thing all the time was just as we said, exhausted. And so she chose to, to not take up.

[00:12:22] The next contract. And also she had, come off maternity leave. and so she decided that this was a time that she could change or, or change, or consider another opportunity in another area still. In her bed with her background, still in some form of research or, and validation work that she does.

[00:12:47] So we still kept the craft of what she does, but where do you find those roles in other organizations where she can apply for not just apply, but then be able to be shortlisted and get the role.

[00:13:03] Grant Williams: [00:13:03] What’s the decision making process for you, Sarah, and also for you Marina in assessing opportunities. Did you want to get off that rolling contract situation?

[00:13:14] Were you looking for a more secure mode of employment?

[00:13:21] Sarah: [00:13:21] I was looking for a more secure employment. I, because I’ve been in research for 10 years. I didn’t know what would be [00:13:30] Suited to my, my skillset. and I was always questioning. Was I, what was, what skillset can I use to be transferrable to my next job?

[00:13:41] I think after. After a long period of time doing research, you start to doubt yourself a bit more, with, with years. And I think Marina was great in sort of, showing and highlighting my abilities that can be transferred to the next to the next role. So that was, that was really good. Yes,

[00:14:00] Grant Williams: [00:14:00] Marina, what, what I’m thinking, it must be difficult to know where to source a suitable job for Sarah.

[00:14:16] Cause I’m guessing that for government funded, Things that it has to be advertised, but because it’s such a small community, I think in a city, everyone would probably know who’s good in the field. So are they hidden jobs?

[00:14:39] Marina Pitisano: [00:14:39] What’s important about, I think what Sarah, I think what’s really important to highlight here is that, we did spend some time. Breaking down her skillset. So as you’ve heard, she is a scientist, she does experiments. She writes grants, she writes papers. [00:15:00] So we had to break down what all those skills met.

[00:15:03] She was a team leader. She did do quality control and validation. Now, these things that I’m telling you, who I’m highlighting that is. That is the area we’ve pursued. So we broke everything down. And what we then had to do was think about where would roles with that breakdown of skills or capabilities actually sit.

[00:15:29] So it’s not, it’s not about the hidden. It’s not about the hidden market in this case, because the roles that are scientifically based that are research and that have that requirement from an academic perspective are advertised, are advertised on paper, are advertised, in, on seek and ethical jobs. The problem Sarah had was that.

[00:15:59] Okay. What you know, after being in an organization for 10 years, when she, you, what she was doing, but we have blind spots too. How does that all break down? And how does it all break down and how do you build it again to transfer it to another organization or to transfer it to another part of the medical or scientific industry.

[00:16:23] And that’s what I was able to help her with. I was able to break that down and they were able to transfer [00:16:30] it to other industries. So we spent time going, okay, we’ve got these skills. And now when we look at the roles which we were looking for, which was. Research office. Ah, we were looking for scientists, research scientists.

[00:16:46] We were looking for. We ended up with looking at validation team leader roles, which she, Sarah spends a lot of time validating the experiments. And I remember saying to Sarah, Sarah, do you validate the experiments? She has very hard to do a lot of that. And he said, I can’t really, I can’t believe that I’ve even forgotten how much of that I do.

[00:17:10]and the reason why I’ve mentioned them, that is because that’s what we pursued and we were successful, but it was that real process of breaking it down and aligning it to the market and then looking for those roles, which I’ve spent a lot of time with my clients getting that clarity, because they’re not sure how to do that.

[00:17:32] Sarah: [00:17:32] You’re absolutely right. Marina, because I spent, I think even prior to you coming to see you, I was picking roles that I thought were suitable for me. and it was completely, completely wrong. And it’s good that you broke down my, broke me down. You break me, broke my skill set down and, and really highlighted what I can do because.

[00:17:54] Yes. It just becomes a cycle of, not knowing you just be having a cycle of [00:18:00] you, applying for jobs that you’re not suitable for, because you’re not using your right skillset for that. Jobs that you’re applying for. I think that’s what way to say it. and it was great that you were able to, you know, Hey Sarah, what’s, what are you skills?

[00:18:13] And do you realize these are transferable to this next job? And I think I, I was missing that link, I think. And it was good to see someone speaking from the outside in telling me that rather than, one of my friends would tell me, but I, I think I needed that third unbiased opinion. Just tell me that

[00:18:30] Grant Williams: [00:18:30] Marina, what was the pressure that you, that you had to go through with, with Sarah?

[00:18:35] Was it, was it building lists was, analyzing the, yeah, the, the jobs. That’s not really the right term. But the, the task and the process that she was going through, and you have to pull that, like, I’m just interested in how you, how you made, how you made the list to then show it back to Sarah and say, Hey, this is, this is you.

[00:19:01] Marina Pitisano: [00:19:01] Well, the way I break down the list, or the way I teach by the skills is that I look at her. So, what I do is I look at her previous role and what we did was we looked at and said, what are technical? What are all the technical skills that Sarah had at what were more her people call it softer skills. I call it employability skills and other people call it emotional intelligence skills, [00:19:30] which are communication report, writing, strategic thinking.

[00:19:36] Team, leadership skills, project management, because remember Sarah has to manage a project managers science as, a scientific project. So we had all the employability skills, softer skills, and then all the technical skills. So when we started to break down the fact that she could do that, she could do, scientific experiments that she could grant Raj.

[00:19:59] That she could validate the experiments that she would have to, write the papers. So writing skills comes out that she has to, manage these students and watch. Quality control. She has to make sure she has quality control. As we broke them all down, we were able to then identify which of those would transfer into a research officer assigned to the science or research scientist.

[00:20:26] I QC validation team leader, which ones would follow that. And then we did some searches on sake and, on. job sites to start to match them. So we’ve got this list. What could we match it to? And I think it was the matching that was critical because we were able to keep, okay, this job has. 60% of what you do or 70% of what you do and the majority of what you do.

[00:20:58] So yeah, we can [00:21:00] apply for that. And so that was the, that was the process. We used to a identify all the skills and then transfer them to roles in the market. But I think what you’d like to know is how many jobs there were before she met me.

[00:21:14] Grant Williams: [00:21:14] Well, actually, I do, I do want to, I do want to know that and I wanted to know how has Sarah, was, was, was going like how, how were you managing at that time?

[00:21:28] Because she mentioned earlier it was around January. So at the time that you’re looking to make a transition, we’re going through the biggest employment and economic. The earthquake in, in, in a hundred years. so that must’ve been really stressful cause you’re thinking, well, I’ve just taken this.

[00:21:53] I’m just taking this gamble and look, look what the world’s thrown up at me.

[00:21:59] Sarah: [00:21:59] Well, it was, it was, I was watching it slowly erupt. and I think Marina asked, I think she asked the question about how it, how were the jobs in universities? Cause that’s the roles that was being applying for. And I think I limited myself to university positions.

[00:22:14]And I watched that happen as well as the COVID-19 happening. And I thought, Oh, I don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t think, is it going to get better or is it going to get worse? and it got worse. and then, yeah, so I had applied for probably about six or seven university positions, [00:22:30] and there were more administrative roles.

[00:22:31]so I moved away from physically remove myself away from research roles, using my. I thought was suitable for me. and so I think at that time, so that was come January. I realized, okay, I need to, See someone else because I’m not getting even the university roles, which were as looking back now where.

[00:22:56] Below my, below my standards, but my job description Marina was telling me and I didn’t have,

[00:23:08] yeah. Is that

[00:23:09] Grant Williams: [00:23:09] a big, a big, no, no Marina that if you, take PayPal, we’ll look at, look at your work history and go a qualified without all this. Without this one here,

[00:23:23] Marina Pitisano: [00:23:23] you can fold into that. You can’t fold into that problem. And therapist somewhat fell into that problem in the sense of, I’ll go for less, but what people do or what job seekers do is when they get discouraged, when they apply for jobs that they think they’re very capable to do, and they get knocked back, they think all of a sudden that there’s something wrong with them and therefore they must have.

[00:23:52] The capability or the experience or the skills and what they do is rather than stick to what they should stick to [00:24:00] then start to go for lesser roles, lesser roles that I’ve got less experience. Because I think say that Sarah was like, yeah, that’s me. So what was happening was that she was going for roles that really suited her, like tutored her, but for whatever reason, wasn’t getting it.

[00:24:16] So she all immediately thought. Oh, I must not be good enough. I must not be capable. They’re not choosing me. So what I’ll do is I’ll choose to go for lesser roles that, you know, surely I can get an admin role in a science lab because I’m a scientist, but you’re you’re, you are then overqualified and that’s when they’re not going to pick you because

[00:24:42] that will be wondering why, which you going for these less than jobs when you’ve got all this experience. So I actually had to sort of challenge that a lot to say, Sarah, you have a lot of experience. You have a lot of knowledge. Why are you, why are you selling yourself short? Which, unfortunately, the job seeking process self-esteem pixie.

[00:25:05] And when you’re getting rejected and not back, your self esteem suffers. And so you tend to just pedal backwards instead of going forward. So you just need someone to say you’re actually peddling the wrong way. You need to go back paddle the right way. And we just need to really look at what we need to tweak to get you there because there was a lot of things saver.

[00:25:27] Wasn’t doing that. Wasn’t getting [00:25:30] her in the door.

[00:25:31] Grant Williams: [00:25:31] Yeah. It’s been a really, awful time for so many people in so many occupations. So many businesses. So, Marina. how did you identify a suitable opportunity? Sarah and Sarah with your  science background and having been working in a lab, and I know you’re not an immunologist or a VAR virologist, whatever, but yeah, we should have sitting there going well, I was tracking this big gamble and you could just see the situation snowballing around the world.

[00:26:09] And you would, you would know that it would take a huge effort by each community, each individual, Country or, or shitty to really put a stop to what was happening there. How did, how did you keep positive while you were saying what was unfolding? And then Marina, if you could ask her after Sarah, if you could tell us how you identified the suitable opportunity and how we got good news.

[00:26:41] Sarah: [00:26:41] I think I stayed positive because, I say positive cause I have a great network and including Marina and, and I thought the people that were around me were actually following what the government. They said, social distancing, everyone around me was social distancing. We try to limit like going out.

[00:26:58] And I thought if, [00:27:00] if the people around me, listening and abiding by the rules, The outcome in Australia will be positive. Those that don’t withhold or don’t honor the governments, rulings or laws at the time. I think what we’re doing, not doing where we’re going to be not going to recover quickly from this covert.

[00:27:21]but I just thought if the people around me are positive, then that should rub off on me as well. Yeah. That’s how I stay positive and looking at my network and my support network. I think they were great too. Make me positive as well. Yeah.

[00:27:42] Grant Williams: [00:27:42] How did you pick out the right opportunities for Sarah to then apply

[00:27:48] Sarah: [00:27:48] for?

[00:27:50] Marina Pitisano: [00:27:50] Well, I think it’s. The process I follow with everyone is I identify where the opportunities are in the sense of, I have a net to look information up and say, right, let’s check and say, let’s now cross check what we’ve identified to see how that looks in the market.

[00:28:13] So I’ll go do my research in understanding. Okay. What are the areas that we could pivot to that Sarah could consider? And I, I’m not sure if I found the role or Sarah found the role. but we [00:28:30] looked at it. I remember having the conversation with Sarah to say, when I look at this particular role, now this role had not the title that she has in her resume.

[00:28:40]the information that we, we identified the skills. But it looked completely different to anything she’s ever applied for. And when I picked it up, I just said, Sarah, I actually think you have a lot to offer in this job. When we broke your skills down, you actually match it very nicely. And the company is awesome.

[00:29:03] And I really think that you want to now make a change. From being university from coming from a university to going into something commercial, this is the opportunity for us to change, to pivot into. And Sarah said, you know, I think I can really do this. I honestly think I can get this done. So, and I, and I said to Sarah, are you happy for us to reply?

[00:29:27] And she said, yeah, I’m ready for this. So that was the process we followed. Yeah,

[00:29:35] Sarah: [00:29:35] I think I remember you had selected two jobs jobs, and, one was a field application specialist, which required a lot of traveling. and I, I thought I’ll sit up for four and then this other job was a team validation. QC team validation leader, and you really highlighted my skills and you really broke it down. And then it made me realize, and you said, Are [00:30:00] you going to apply for it? Once you sort of said, these are, these are your skills, Sarah, which I, I thought I didn’t have, then it made me confident to apply for it.

[00:30:10] Yeah,

[00:30:14] push me in the back and say, Hey, just do it because I, I can’t say something. I can’t see things sometimes and I wear glasses, but, I can’t see things unless on tells me it’s in front of me because you’re so used to seeing your skills, but you can’t really see it until someone tells you if that makes sense.

[00:30:33] So you need someone to tell you, tell you what, because you become. You feel? I don’t feel confident after, after a period of time. And I thought Maureen was great in that really helped me build confidence and showing me what I

[00:30:47] Marina Pitisano: [00:30:47] can do.

[00:30:48]

[00:30:48] Grant Williams: [00:30:48] Yeah. Is it a medical type company or is it more sciencey engineering kind of company?

[00:30:59] Sarah: [00:30:59] It’s a biotech company. Biopharmaceutical company. Yeah.

[00:31:06] Marina Pitisano: [00:31:06] The other thing that was really important grant that, is really important to highlight in Sarah’s journey is that she mentioned that she had applied for quite a few roles. And when she showed me her, is you, what did I say, Sarah? When, when you shop at yours, your mind.

[00:31:23] Sarah: [00:31:23] You said it was a bit long.

[00:31:28] Marina Pitisano: [00:31:28] Well, I’ll tell you what I said. [00:31:30] So I saw her resume and I said, Sarah, this resume does not actually outline you in any way. You know, I I’m, I’m actually more confused because what happened with Sarah was she had applied for those seven roles. And I think there were a few more Sarah that says she forgets, there were a few more.

[00:31:50] There were a few more roles to me. She said I’ve been applied, but these roles were like anything and everything. It didn’t, there was no common sense to the roles that she was applying for. And I said, Sarah, what is your plan here? Because I’m getting very confused. She said, Oh, I’ve got so confused. I don’t know what to apply for anymore.

[00:32:10] So I’m just applying for anything I can find.

[00:32:13] Sarah: [00:32:13] That’s what you do. And that’s what happened. I think you start at good start and you think you’re sounding good. It started, and it just comes down to I’ll just do it. And then Marine actually told me, stop applying for the jobs for the sake of applying for jobs, actually find out what you want to do before you apply for it.

[00:32:29] Don’t waste your energy on something that you’re not. Competent in applying for,

[00:32:34] Marina Pitisano: [00:32:34] or you don’t match the criteria or as you said, grant you’re overqualified. So we all know. And I think grant you’ve heard me say this millions of times, the amount of work that people put into their resume and the cover letters is massive.

[00:32:49] And here she is, she’s got three children she’s out of work. She’s quite stressed and she’s up every night making these applications that are going nowhere. [00:33:00] And that was Sarah for quite a few months before she caught up with me,

[00:33:09] Grant Williams: [00:33:09] the key, any kind of job search Sarah, is that you’re really happy with where you’ve landed.

[00:33:19] Sarah: [00:33:19] Well, I haven’t started the job, but I seem to, that people seem to be very lovely. And, I think I am happy with where I’ve landed on my feet. In my bum.

[00:33:35] Well, I’ve got a couple of ’em. Well, this job is quite interesting because I’ve got to have a medical test as well as, a background academic check. So at a police check. So I’ve got to go, go through those hoops first, before they give me an official litter off of other. But, I think I’m pretty much like 85%, 90% there.

[00:33:54] Marina Pitisano: [00:33:54] So Sarah, can I ask you a question, through the process, through writing the resume during the application interview, what was the most useful? What, what really helped you through, you know, identifying the skills we’ve talked about, but when we look through the process and everything that I worked with you on, what would you consider to be the most useful or most critical to.

[00:34:21] Sarah: [00:34:21] I think the most critical was to look at the, the case selection criteria. And then. I’m married that [00:34:30] with the skill requirements to fit your skill requirements and always have, I think always have an example and an outcome. I think a lot of the instances I was wasn’t marrying the key selection criteria with the skills and requirements together and

[00:34:48] Marina Pitisano: [00:34:48] cutting.

[00:34:49] Well, the examples you were using in your

[00:34:53] Sarah: [00:34:53] examples that I was using, which I thought was pertinent, was it pertinent? And I wasn’t, finishing off like speaking or even writing with an, an outcome. And I think if you leave with a link with a high note, when you write as well as you speak, I think it’s, leaves a message with the, the reader or the interviewer.

[00:35:15] I think that’s one of the key things

[00:35:17] Marina Pitisano: [00:35:17] that the interview experience, the interviews, the interviewing was really important and also matching their key selection criteria and highlighting the correct stories or examples with outcomes really helps, you know, the job. I

[00:35:36] Sarah: [00:35:36] think I really do think so because if I look at the.

[00:35:41] The CV that I sent or the cover letter that I first sent that I sent to the place that I’m successful compared to my initial ones. There were two, there were two different, let’s see almost two foreign languages. I think the one that I sent most recently is was it long, it was much more succinct and much [00:36:00] more relevant to what they were looking for.

[00:36:01] So I think relevance in your examples and outcome relevant outcomes is critical. You know, Getting that foot into the interview process or the next process after sending the cover letter or, Oh, you get cover letter or your CV? Yeah.

[00:36:19] Grant Williams: [00:36:19] Okay. So I love Kevin Lennon. Sarah. I want apply for a job out there for accounting and got, Oh, it was hundreds of applications.

[00:36:33] I think the best kind of a letter I got was I would really like to work for you and your glorious company.

[00:36:43] That was about the extent of.

[00:36:49] It, hasn’t done a lot of research. If he thinks I’ve done something before

[00:36:57] Sarah: [00:36:57] potentially glorious,

[00:36:59] Grant Williams: [00:36:59] but hadn’t even checked it out online. Marina, what’s the, what’s the difference in process when it comes to, sort of selecting the, maybe the first, the first cow of applicants, and then going down to the, to the interviews for a science based job, is it different to, to what we’ve been familiar with?

[00:37:28] In the series already with [00:37:30] sort of admin kind of roles or managerial roles,

[00:37:36] Marina Pitisano: [00:37:36] the roles are all the same. They’re just different variations of techniques. They the technicality. So, you know, I, I understand lots of different industries and I’ve worked across many industries. So the skill of breaking down the skills, whether you’re an engineer, whether you’re a project manager, whether you’re an Archie, whether you’re a scientist, the process is the same for all the roles.

[00:38:08] It’s then being able to break that down. And then be able to write about it, taking the right examples in the cover letter, but really the most important is making sure that your resume is really. Standing out and delivering, key information and quickly and succinctly. And that’s when Sarah mentioned my, my resume.

[00:38:38] I was too long. it was very long. It had, I think, five or six pages. We cut it down to about three. and it’s not about length. So, you know, there are, there are. They are recruiters that wants a lot of information. There’s recruiters that want one page. You can’t make the criteria of everyone, but what’s [00:39:00] critical about that is delivering the right information.

[00:39:03] And that’s what Sarah and I spent a lot of time on is Sarah gave me her information. I had to research your industry and I rewrote the resume to draw out the, the skills and capabilities that she has. So. Sarah, could you have done that by yourself? Because a lot of people in today’s world things, I could write my own resumes and they went on, look at them.

[00:39:30] I just don’t think they’re delivering the right information. But do you think that’s something that you could do by yourself?

[00:39:43] now

[00:39:46] Sarah: [00:39:46] yeah.

[00:39:49] Marina Pitisano: [00:39:49] Cause we don’t go around applying for work and not getting anything, you know, and realizing that when someone independently looks at your work and says, Sarah, it’s not delivering the right message. Is that something you could really do by yourself?

[00:40:07] Sarah: [00:40:07] I think if someone told me. You’re not delivering the right message.

[00:40:12]I would have re rigid it, but I don’t know if I would’ve done it the right way. having said that I had a lot of people like have a lot of friends that in different industries and they sent me their CVS and they were, I thought that they were quite successful, but maybe the. [00:40:30] The niche that they were looking for was suitable for that Trump job description.

[00:40:34] Yeah. And I think you taught me how to, I think it’s best if you went through you. I think you have much more clarity if I was to do it, I think I needed that, help in showing me a bit more clarity on how to do it. Yeah.

[00:40:49] Marina Pitisano: [00:40:49] I just asked that question because in today’s world, so many. People are trying to get and stand out in the market and trying to do it on their own.

[00:41:02] And they do go to friends and family and those friends and family share with what they’ve jumped. But that doesn’t mean it’s the right why for your industry. And the other thing is, is that a lot of people go and just get their resumes done. And this is where I’m unique. They don’t get their resume done.

[00:41:22] And then I think why doesn’t my resume work it’s because look at all the other pieces that you’ve got to get, right? It’s not just a resume application. We spent a lot of time on your application letter and your cover letter sometimes more so than the resume. And then when you had for the interview, we spent a lot of time preparing for that interview.

[00:41:42] So, so much. Describe any paths of the job search process that you’ve got to get. Right. And to do that whole on your own without any. Yeah, all support. It’s really happy to meet you. [00:42:00] That’s my experience.

[00:42:02] Sarah: [00:42:02] Yeah. All right. I, and I just need that clarity and a lot of, I think there’s a lot of destroyed when I was writing.

[00:42:08] If someone was to ask like, you’re right, I want us to ask someone else to do your resume, pay someone else’s to do your resume. There’ll be a lot of disjointed messages because it’s not, they’re not really talking about the person. The resume doesn’t really bring out the person’s job description. If they were going to hire someone that they haven’t spoken to, they haven’t spoken to, they don’t know the person’s qualities.

[00:42:36] They will, they would lose them in that resume. I think you’re great in the sense that you know who I am as well as my job, my qualities. And you’re able to succinctly write that into my CV.

[00:42:48] Marina Pitisano: [00:42:48] And then, but most of them,

[00:42:56] yeah.

[00:42:56] Sarah: [00:42:56] And I think paying someone that you don’t know, you’re going to lose a limb. I think you’re gonna lose it. And you just going go through that same cycle again, which is where I was in January. Yeah,

[00:43:06] Grant Williams: [00:43:06] Sarah, how did you find the interview? It’s been a long time since you, sorry. Yeah.

[00:43:17] Sarah: [00:43:17] Oh, that I was really nervous.

[00:43:19] It’s been 10 years since my last job interview. and I was, quite, quite nervous because I’ve never last, zoom that I did was. Oh, [00:43:30] I had another zoom, interview probably a year ago and that was the successful. So I did find it daunting. And I found that I had to take 10 minutes before the actual job interview and take a breather, get for a walk and then sit down because I was like, all right.

[00:43:45] Antsy. And, yeah.

[00:43:48] Grant Williams: [00:43:48] So you just mentioned that. I had an interview a year ago, so excuse me. So you had been looking, you’ve been toying with the idea of finding another role pride

[00:44:09] Sarah: [00:44:09] through one of my friends who’s in a, in a. Another biotech company. And she said, she just said, Oh, they haven’t advertised to this position.

[00:44:16] Just, send your, your CV to this guy. And, we’ll see what happens, but I’ve given you the word. So it was through, through a friend. It wasn’t through a job site. Yeah. So I had interviewed in that. Yeah.

[00:44:32] Grant Williams: [00:44:32] I didn’t think that that would be, it’s a fairly close sort of community in

[00:44:38] Sarah: [00:44:38] that,

[00:44:41] Grant Williams: [00:44:41] so that people would be aware of, of people who would be suitable.

[00:44:47] How many, just to give an idea how many similar kind of labs where you were working. Not the role you’re stepping into, but where you were working, how many similar kind of [00:45:00] labs would they be in a city? The size of Melbourne.

[00:45:04] Sarah: [00:45:04] Oh, there’s too many to count.

[00:45:09] So there was,

[00:45:13] Marina Pitisano: [00:45:13] I think

[00:45:13] Sarah: [00:45:13] there was five or six.

[00:45:18] Grant Williams: [00:45:18] How many appropriate employers? Because your Institute is, is one, even though it would operate, you know, maybe 15 different labs and have different teams. How many different employers would there be for that, for that role? Are we talking?

[00:45:39] Sarah: [00:45:39] Yeah, I couldn’t tell. I couldn’t count.

[00:45:44] Grant Williams: [00:45:44] So it’s not as closed as that as I would have thought.

[00:45:49] Sarah: [00:45:49] Well, no, it’s not as close now. But everyone knows everyone because there’s a lot of collaboration. Everyone knows your skillset within a university and also people talk. So,

[00:46:03] Grant Williams: [00:46:03] yeah. Yeah. Oh, no.

[00:46:11] Marina Pitisano: [00:46:11] But remember Sarah wanted to get out of universities.

[00:46:13] So that makes it hard because you’re trying to work out of an industry that you and he would have got that. So that’s, I can give me, but you want to go, that’s a huge, different bridge and I’m getting into a [00:46:30] commercial science lab is very difficult to do. Yeah.

[00:46:37] Sarah: [00:46:37] No one in that field,

[00:46:39] Marina Pitisano: [00:46:39] not, you can’t rely on networks.

[00:46:41] You can’t rely on people that know the industry. You can’t rely, you don’t have the commercial aspect that she has the affidavit from. She doesn’t have the commercial. It’s a different deal because this is biochem. Bio chemistry. Yeah. Biochemistry. By chain by pharmaceutical pharmaceutical. So things are niche industries that are differential to transfer.

[00:47:14] So you really have to know, what you’re doing and what your skill set is, and really promote it. You can’t niche it that way. You’ll never get over it. You’ll never get, you’ll never get to the breach. I’ll never get out

[00:47:28] Sarah: [00:47:28] of the booth.

[00:47:30] Grant Williams: [00:47:30] Well, the news has a different to amazing bio pharmacy or biotech story every night, Sarah.

[00:47:40] Yeah. With some great names. Great. Near the discovery. That’s going to solve all the world’s problems.

[00:47:56] Sarah: [00:47:56] My sentence. Well, you

[00:47:58] Grant Williams: [00:47:58] probably you’ll [00:48:00] probably need a podcast now that you’re out there. Yeah. Outside of academia, you’ll leave. You’ll leave. You need to build the brand so that your next trend is a lot easier.

[00:48:11] Marina Pitisano: [00:48:11] Sarah need to build this branch. You won’t need to work. I think she’s working for the brand is huge.

[00:48:23] It’s on the news all the time.

[00:48:29] Sarah: [00:48:29] It is. Oh.

[00:48:32] Grant Williams: [00:48:32] Sarah, one thing I’m always interested in when, when people go through, create change is what, what did they learn? What did the person learn about themselves now? I think your, your change is really unique from what we’ve been talking about in this series so far, because cause she came with that.

[00:48:57] That double whammy time where not only will you have change, but the whole world that just changed around us at the same time. So what have you learned about yourself in the sort of the last five or six months?

[00:49:18] Sarah: [00:49:18] I think the thing that I learned about myself is, I have transferable skills. I think I was, a lot of the time I was doubting myself and aye, have skills [00:49:30] that are transferable to a biopharmaceutical company.

[00:49:33]Able to, conveying my skills succinctly. I think I was always second guessing myself and I think I have, a good skill set that can be used in, in other industries besides the one that I was in before. So, I think that’s what I learned about myself and also that, I have great, great. support networking Marina and I’ve got, I think. There’s always light at the end of the tunnel. I think just be patient with yourself, work hard and be patient. And there’ll be light at the end.

[00:50:11] Grant Williams: [00:50:11] Yeah. Yep. Marina, before I launch into my, my last question, I think this is the right John, for you to give us the key tips and takeaways for this, for this case

[00:50:26] Marina Pitisano: [00:50:26] expert. For this one, I really want. The chief that I have for people is seek help, get help, Judy. This it’s a very difficult time at the moment. jobs are going to be shifting and changing. There’s huge. people applying for roles, there’s a lot of people applying for similar roles. So you really need to able to get help, to be able to define and.

[00:50:55] They’re able to really, be specific in what you [00:51:00] offer, what makes you unique? And really be able to deliver that in a resume and application and an interview. So you’ve got to really do that work. So getting a resume done on its own, having a lot of applications and not getting. Any feedback in STEM in strategy or showing that something’s not working, you need an expert to look at that and say it is not working because of these reasons let’s tweak this, let’s change this and hard as Sarah says, you see the logic at the end of the channel and you have success.

[00:51:37] Sarah: [00:51:37] Yeah.

[00:51:40] Grant Williams: [00:51:40] Sarah

[00:51:47] had a phrase this the best way. I

[00:51:51] Sarah: [00:51:51] think what.

[00:51:56] Grant Williams: [00:51:56] Given given what you’ve, what you’ve learned and the environment that you’ve been working in, you’ve Reiki, you’ve now been told that you’ve got, transferable skills to other industries and you’ve managed to break out of academia. And you’re now into the sort of commercial side of it. Do you feel that you.

[00:52:18] Have taken on a mouse experience in a way in us now that you could confidently go into. Any other [00:52:30] industry provided you had the, the minimum requisite skills? Like what could you, do you think you could go and be a, for instance, a tool God later now with the things you’ve learned about yourself, or could you go and could you go and run a busy, a busy office or be a tram drawing?

[00:52:52] Sarah: [00:52:52] I think you need some kind of skills. Driving the tramp. but I think in application of applying for those jobs, I think I would know where, where to marry the two to, the, to fulfill the key selection criteria is, and the requirements I would know how to apply for positions like that. yeah, I think I would, but I would also know my strengths by then.

[00:53:16]and I would know how to put them into the CV, but. Yes, I think I would. I think I would. but I know that I’m not a tram driver. I know that I’m not a tall guy drive.

[00:53:33] Grant Williams: [00:53:33] That was my sneaky question for people can, can get an idea because people have still been asking me since we’ve had this. Yeah. Like people will show me, but what do you talk about. Joe Joe,

[00:53:50] Sarah: [00:53:50] well,

[00:53:53] Grant Williams: [00:53:53] densifying the things about you that are unique to you that can help you [00:54:00] do all sorts of things that are presented in front of the VA.

[00:54:05] So I know it’s, it’s almost impossible for Marina to just say that, Yeah, it sounds like you’re just running down the list, but we’ll coordinate takeaway when I’m listening to your story, Sarah is that you would shop full of skills and abilities and, and, and you had everything about the process down, but when you, when you’re doing the same thing for so long, what all the skills.

[00:54:37] That you’ve accumulated. Ah, and, and it certainly those front of mind, things that, what do I have to do today? And yesterday that sit there in front of you?

[00:54:52] Marina Pitisano: [00:54:52] No, nothing. I think Sarah, I think it was a very good question. So I think what you were asking was. When you, when you were looking for future roles, do you, would you have the same process? Do you now know what a year and how to draw that out? And I think Sarah would feel very comfortable and I think that’s what I want to do with my clients is make them resilient and resourceful.

[00:55:19] I want them relying on me. I want them to learn what to do and be able to do it. Anytime if they ever need it again. So it’s about learning the [00:55:30] basics, learning the information and being able to apply

[00:55:32] Grant Williams: [00:55:32] it. What I didn’t ask. Well, what, and I think extending what Marina had just said. I get the feeling, Sarah, that you would be more prepared to push the boundaries the next time that you, I gotta, I gotta make a change.

[00:55:50] And, and as we all know things happen, so, so there might be that time coming up and I reckon you’ll be forearmed to, to deal with that easily. Is there something else that you would, that you would tell ’em somebody who’s confronted with a situation where they feel like they need to move then the, to get into something, something new, what would, what would be a simple message that you would, that you would give them?

[00:56:25]Sarah: [00:56:25] don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid to ask for help. I think. Yeah, young, you don’t know. don’t be afraid to ask for help and people are always willing to help you

[00:56:40] Marina Pitisano: [00:56:40] if

[00:56:40] Sarah: [00:56:40] you’ve got the best. Like if you are, you feel. People always have with, particularly with Marine, I think everyone has the best intentions, and they only want you to succeed.

[00:56:51] And, so don’t be afraid to ask for help when necessary or when you feel like you want to make that change. and as you said, [00:57:00] start no, no questions, dumb question. and just ask what’s the harm in asking for help,

[00:57:07] but

[00:57:07] Marina Pitisano: [00:57:07] ask an expert.

[00:57:15] Sarah: [00:57:15] I asked for help.

[00:57:23] Yes. And don’t be ashamed to ask for help. That’s what I think. I think if, if I didn’t ask for an expert for help, I would be where I was in January. So. Just take a step back and ask for help.

[00:57:39] Grant Williams: [00:57:39] I’m always finding out there are no dumb questions. There’s just you ask them.

[00:57:45] Marina Pitisano: [00:57:45] Yeah.

[00:57:49] Grant Williams: [00:57:49] Well, I think, I think in the village create your career journey for today. Well done. You.

[00:58:03] COVID high achiever. That’s what, that’s what you

[00:58:07] Sarah: [00:58:07] can expect to get

[00:58:12] that

[00:58:13] Grant Williams: [00:58:13] talk much well done. And hopefully all the analyze and protease and whatnot. And they’re all, they’re all gonna work in your.

[00:58:28] Marina [00:58:30] within we’re at the finish line. Well

[00:58:38] way, can people look up. All of your resources, if they’re in a situation where they want to make a change in their career.

[00:58:47] Marina Pitisano: [00:58:47] So the few things people could do, firstly, they could go to my website, WW dot  dot com and book in a career chat with me so they can book in a chat and I think goes through their situation and understand, and understand what they.

[00:59:05] Might need help in and see if I can help them. The other thing is, is that I’m also running, what’s called a and learn, through my meetup groups and join my meetup group, the Melbourne committee development, and, have a look at that and see, come in and again, get some help. And thirdly, if you want to know what a resume or cover letter should look like, download my application kit.

[00:59:25]and reach out to me on my website and that has, that’s what you want, and I can help you with that. So they’re the three things that people can do.

[00:59:33] Grant Williams: [00:59:33] So your, your discussion group is, is that through the website or do

[00:59:40] Marina Pitisano: [00:59:40] they just gotta, gotta get a made up and the velvet career development may tap group and they can join the meetup group and I ran chat and learns on a fortnightly basis.

[00:59:49] So they’ve got quite a few opportunities to talk to me.

[00:59:53] Grant Williams: [00:59:53] And I know you’re always promoting those on LinkedIn. So look for Marina on [01:00:00] LinkedIn. Zara. Thanks for joining us. It’s been, it’s been a voyage of discovery for me today and, I just wish you well, and I wish everyone who’s in this situation where you’re having to make a change.

[01:00:15]During the most tumultuous period that I think we’ve had apart from during world Wars. So good luck everyone. Thanks for

[01:00:25] Sarah: [01:00:25] it.

[01:00:30] Marina Pitisano: [01:00:30] Take care. Bye.

 

Read the Transcript

 

Grant Williams:

It’s the next installment of Letz Create Your Career story. As always, I’m Grant Williams, and I’m joined by Marina Pitisano, who is our … You know, I hate the word coach. Mentor?

Marina Pitisano:

Well, you can say career consultant.

Grant Williams:

I know. You’re a career mentor. You’re a consultant.

Marina Pitisano:

Career practitioner, a career support guide.

Grant Williams:

I’m going to stick with expert, because for where I’m sitting-

Marina Pitisano:

Oh, thank you.

Grant Williams:

… I’m not the expert voice.

Marina Pitisano:

That’s lovely.

Grant Williams:

Well, that’s why you’re here.

Marina Pitisano:

Well, thank you. Today I’m so excited because you’re now going to meet another one of my key clients, or who was a key client is my dearest friend now, Krisha, who will be able to go through and share with us all her story back a few years ago where life wasn’t as great as it is today, quite a difficult time for her. And we’re just going to go through that journey together. Krisha will explain what happened back then and what we did and what we pursued and what was the outcome of all the hard work that we did together. So I’m very excited today to introduce Krisha.

Grant Williams:

Hi, Krisha.

Krisha:

Hi. It’s lovely to be here today, and thank you, Marina, for that wonderful intro.

Grant Williams:

Now, Krisha, I’m expecting with that introduction that sometime there’s going to be a book come out about the Krisha struggle. But can you start us off at the point where you realized you needed to engage somebody like Marina to help you with the progression of your career? What kind of a hall or dark place or struggle street were you in?

Krisha:

Yeah. Great question. Thank you. So I think now when I look back on my career and how things … the ebbs and flows, I think of it as being a bit like an actor where once you get known as a certain type of actor, it can be really hard to get out of that type casting. It was really fantastic to meet someone like Marina because she broadened my scope on what I could do and what could be achieved.

Krisha:

So I had had a corporate role previously and I had worked as a property valuer, so I knew what it was like to work in that kind of corporate field and then being a woman. So my journey is very much about being a mother. So being a woman, I had made a decision to move away from the corporate role because I wanted to be more present for my children, and I made the mistake of choosing a very basic receptionist role, which at the time I thought it would be a good idea. But what unfortunately I didn’t realize at the time is that when you go backwards in your career, it can be almost impossible to get back to where you were before you took that step back.

Grant Williams:

I was going to ask the, well, I think, obvious question. Why would you think that a receptionist role, which is usually a general dogsbody, you’re the last to leave, you’re the one cleaning everything up, you’re the one doing all the research for people who are too lazy to do it … What made you think that that would be a better option than perhaps taking on a part-time or some other allied role using your valuing skills, which I would’ve thought would have left the whole property market open to you and all those kinds of roles?

Krisha:

Yeah. Again, I think, for people on the outside, they see lots of potential, but actually when you’re in the role itself, it’s not as expansive as you might think. So when I realized that I wasn’t happy working the 60- to 80-hour weeks that were required at the time, it was not really … I then did actively pursue a three-day-a-week option, and after 12 months of looking, it became apparent that those roles simply did not exist. So that was in the early 2000s, so about 15 years ago.

Grant Williams:

It’s a really interesting hoodwinking job that … I don’t know whether it’s the sort of employment or career industry or whether it’s just a general societal con, but the idea that there are lots of flexible jobs out there for people to contract their hours is just a myth. Nearly everyone who takes on a part-time role, unless it’s heavily codified in a big company with strict a HR department, will be lent on to work an extra hour, an extra hour and a half, every day come in a bit earlier, and your 20-hour-a-week job ends up being 35, 38 hours anyway, and a lot of it unpaid. I mean, is that just a view I’ve got that is wrong, Marina? Or do you think that’s quite normal?

Marina Pitisano:

I think you’re right when it comes to organizations that have got the HR department and their very set roles in the sense that they’re part-time or they’re job share, but probably what you’re alluding to is more smaller business or business owners where they’re working on small teams and therefor the requirement is to do that extra. Krisha’s talking about quite a few years ago. Now with all the redundancies and the changes, the people that are left behind are required to pick up a lot more of the requirements, and therefor their hours are being stretched, and it’s getting quite difficult because more and more people expected to do more. There’s more overtime, and if you are working three days or even five, most people are saying they’re working 60 to 80 hours. So yes.

Grant Williams:

Krisha, did you suffer the problem of wages theft, which I think has become a business model for a lot of businesses now? I mean, we’re seeing a lot of them through the courts. I mean, 7-Eleven is about the biggest one that we’ve seen where people are deliberately not paid for hours that they do, they’re forced to roster on. But hospitality operates that as almost a standard business model, and we find every other month there’s another high-profile business that’s being not only sued, but they’re having the judgment made against them to repay the money. Did you suffer that in your receptionist position where you had to work but were not paid for the hours that you were working?

Krisha:

Thankfully I was working for a large government organization and that was not appropriate, so thankfully I was able to work within the set hours. Probably the thing that I would say that I haven’t heard people talk about so much, which I think is an emerging issue within government is what we call the VPS caste system. So the VPS is the Victorian Public Service. You can also sit in the APS, which is the Australian Public Service. Probably it happens across most large organizations, so your IBMs, your Microsofts, those sorts of organizations, where you will be set at a certain pay band and you’ll be allocated certain responsibilities, and people will just see you as only having that ability.

Krisha:

So the workplace is very horizontally structured in that sense that you can only think to a certain pay band, and if you have initiative or if you have ideas or if you see opportunities for growth, you will be hit with a sledgehammer and you will be told that that’s not a great idea for you because you don’t know your place in the food chain. So I wouldn’t say that my concern was so much about exploitation in terms of hours of work, but more just if you did, for example, come up with an idea or you did a whole lot of research or whatever, you would then have to explain that to your director, and then your director would go forth with those ideas as their intellectual property. So there was no way for you to actually demonstrate your capacity in that role, which is in some way a form of keeping someone in their place.

Grant Williams:

That’s pretty common in the corporate world too, where a lot of times your contract says whatever you come up with, any idea, isn’t yours, it’s the business’s. So of course the manager up the chain takes credit for a good idea.

Krisha:

But there’s also another part to that Grant, which … So there’s conceptual theft or IP theft, but there’s something else that’s going on there and that is that it’s almost a form of keeping you in your place. It’s almost a form of workplace bullying where it’s like you couldn’t possibly be able to think of something more, and if you could, you couldn’t possibly have the wherewithal to go into a meeting to talk about it. So you just stay at your little desk and do your little job, and we’ll just go off and talk to your ideas. That is incredibly disenabling for women over time. So if you go through that year upon year upon year, then you will start to contract and you will start to believe it, because that’s what that kind of corrosive work culture does to people.

Grant Williams:

Was the environment you were working in … Did it have a mix of public servants and then ministerial or departmental advisers who were actually outside that pay structure and that responsibility structure where they’re on individual contracts and have different performance bonuses, and really they’re part of your team, but they’re not part of the institution?

Krisha:

Couldn’t comment on that simply because I was so far in my little corner.

Grant Williams:

Was it an actual cubicle in a corner?

Krisha:

It was a pod within a cubicle.

Grant Williams:

Marina, what did you identify when you first met Krisha as being the things that had to be addressed first to help her in … I mean, the way I see it, not only a professional crisis. I’m probably overplaying that, but it’s sounds more like a personal and confidence crisis as much as anything else. So where did you attack the problem first?

Marina Pitisano:

Well, it’s interesting that Krisha’s mentioned some of those concerns that she had when she was working back in that environment, and I think this is what we see a lot of is that restraint and that mindset that, “I have to keep small or my environment keeps me small.” Meeting Krisha, she has amazing skills and amazing mindset and mind. So she’s quite strategic, she has a lot of capability, and to hear her say to me that, “The organization is keeping me in this way of working,” I was quite disappointed, because this is, I think, an example of people working in organizations where they have so much capability, so much ability like Krisha and not being allowed to fly or innovate or really create and being kept in that situation.

Marina Pitisano:

I think I still remember the conversation around checking in with her and saying to her, “You do know that you’re far more capable than that, you do know that you have an amazing mind, and you do know that you are very strong and quite strategic.” I always remember, Krisha’s got beautiful blue eyes, and I could see the dullness in her eyes just start to sparkle by thinking, “Really?” like, “Are you sure?” What a lot of my clients tend to say to me is, “Oh. I didn’t know that,” or, “Oh. I didn’t know that I had that about myself, and thank you for validating that.” So it’s about that validation of you’re far more capable and you have so much more ability. Why are you doing this to yourself?

Grant Williams:

Krisha, what was the timeframe of when you left the valuation industry or role and when you realized you needed to speak to somebody like Marina in that receptionist role?

Marina Pitisano:

No. Krisha came to me when she had already gone into … She had moved from that. I think the history was she had gone into reception and now had gone into a government role. So she was in a government role when she came to see me.

Grant Williams:

So, I guess, the point of the question is finding out did you feel that confidence in your own ability and your own skillset being gradually bashed out of you day after day, week after week? What was that light-bulb moment for you where you thought, “I really have to make a change with where I work and how I’ve placed my life”?

Krisha:

Just bear with me. So I think that, for me, the fact that I had worked as a valuer always gave me that sense of self, that I could go and do things, but it was like sort of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and as that corrosive culture that I was in kept encroaching on me, it was like that light just kept getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

Krisha:

I was applying for roles, and it was a time when there was a lot of reduction of roles in government. So it meant that there were more and more people applying for less and less roles. Also, there’d been a lot of cut down in Canberra, which meant that a lot of people who would have been happy working for the APS, the Australian Public Service, were also competing for Victorian roles. So-

Grant Williams:

Probably all other states as well.

Krisha:

Potentially, yeah. So it meant that there were people that were applying for the roles that I was applying for that had come from much more senior roles, and because I’d been stuck in that admin role, it was just getting harder and harder to get traction. So I had been applying for roles consistently, I think, for about a year.

Grant Williams:

A long time.

Krisha:

Yeah. It wasn’t that kind of slack once a six weeks. It was diligent commitment, and I just was not getting interviews, and I was like, “What is going on here?” Something that I learnt from valuing, which I really want to talk about today, is that valuing is a predominantly male industry, something like 93 percent male. What I learnt from that industry is that men come together and nut problems out really well. So if they came across a property that they just didn’t know how to nail it, they would talk and share ideas, and I really enjoyed that collegial practice.

Krisha:

Then when I went into the government role, which is predominantly women, I felt that instead of women working to that sort of way that women sometimes work together beautifully, but in this environment they didn’t, and they didn’t share their ideas, and they didn’t work together to look at what the best solution would be. So I felt that that was shutting down for me too, that sense of nutting things out with your colleagues. So I was becoming increasingly isolated within my workplace.

Grant Williams:

Can I ask, just jump in there on the nature of the two different professions, let’s call them? I’m guessing that because valuing was mostly men, and I’m guessing that most of them were not young men, I’m going to make an assumption that it’s quite a static profession in terms of who’s in it over a period of time. Is that mirrored in the admin space in the public service?

Krisha:

I don’t think it was an age issue. I think it was that-

Grant Williams:

It’s the static movement of personnel that I’m interested in, really, that valuing, and I know certainly in regions and whatnot, a lot of professions, the same people are in the local representative bodies and whatnot for 15, 20 up to 30 years because there isn’t that movement of people out. The top layer stays in. I guess what I’m asking is, is the same thing in your experience present in that admin band that you were familiar with in the public service?

Krisha:

Yeah. It can be. You could see women in that same role doing that same job for 20 odd years. Wasn’t unusual.

Grant Williams:

So there’s a bit of territory marking going on.

Krisha:

Could be. Anyway, so then I noticed that my world was getting smaller and smaller, but what was great was, in my personal life, my daughters were going to school and I was meeting a lot of community members, and one of my community members, the woman who lived on the other side of the laneway behind my house, she said, “You know what? I noticed that you’ve been really struggling to get work,” and she recommended Marina, and she said, “I hope you’re not offended. It comes from a good place. I worked with Marina, and Marina was really good for me,” and so it was a recommendation, and I was really grateful for that recommendation.

Krisha:

I have since passed on recommendations for other women who I’ve seen in similar situations to go and meet with Marina, go and have a cup of tea or coffee or whatever, because what men do well, which women for whatever reason are losing our aptitude to doing, is sharing our resources and saying, “Hey. Go and check this out. This is really useful.” So that was the aha moment when the neighbor said to me, “Whatever you’re doing is clearly not taking wind for you. Maybe go and speak to someone.”

Grant Williams:

Can I ask you both this question? Do you have a theory on why it is that educated, professional, experienced women aren’t sharing? Do you have a-

Marina Pitisano:

I do. I believe that that’s more for individuals or for more maybe women in a corporate environment, because in a business environment we are encouraged and supported to share resources and to reach out. So we have a lot of women networks, women community groups and a lot of support as we drive our business.

Marina Pitisano:

It’s interesting, Krisha, thinking back of when I was back in corporate. I think it’s the nature of the environment in the sense that it’s a hierarchy, so we’re moving up. There might not be a lot of trust in the culture, so you have to fend for yourself to some extent because you need to get ahead. I think, in some ways, there could be some political play that goes on because you’re trying to move up the hierarchy, and it’s a difficult space. So therefor it might feel that you’re on your own rather than collaboration.

Marina Pitisano:

I felt, even in my time in corporate, that men were still very supportive. I could turn to a man, and I could turn to him to … I had always senior leaders and I’m … We’re talking about 20 years ago. I left corporate 10 years ago. So the hierarchy was more male back then, and I felt that I could always go to a male to help me promote my career. It was harder. Women were trying to battle. Women were trying to get up into those senior roles. They had to stand their own ground, so therefor it was them trying to lead the path for others. But, I think, sometimes they forget to come back and share their journey or come back and help others. So I think that is where I think it’s more in the corporate space rather than in the business space.

Marina Pitisano:

You have to remember, in the business space for women there is no glass ceiling. We can all be millionaires tomorrow. There’s no reason for us not … We don’t have a boss. We don’t have a structure. We don’t have a hierarchy. We can do whatever we want to do. I think that’s why we can call on others, whereas in corporate it’s very much about how do I play this game for me to get ahead. Sometimes you’re doing it on your own or you need to drive it on your own because that’s how you feel you need to do it, whereas I think men have the collaboration of other men to support them.

Marina Pitisano:

I am still very disappointed that after 10 years I’ve left corporate the same information … I’m still getting the same information about leadership and hierarchies. They’re still echoing the same things, so I don’t think much is changing, but I’m hoping that, as women become more senior and women can path more opportunities, they will turn back and share those journeys and lessons and learnings with other women coming through. I hope we could become more role models for them.

Grant Williams:

Krisha, can I ask you what the organizational place was? That’s the wrong word, but was it hierarchical in the public service? Or was it sort of trying to be flat with everyone in teams and just having a designated team leader reporting to one manager? Or was it far more progressive in terms of who you had to feed an idea to and then where it went? Do you understand that? I mean, we’re talking ’90s, early 2000s. There was a huge move to take away hierarchy in larger businesses and put everyone in flat structures, and I know … Well, I was in local … or involved in local government for a while, and that all happened as part of the competitive tendering processes where it was all about squashing costs. How were you placed in an organizational structure?

Krisha:

You only spoke to your line manager about ideas. You would not go to your line manager’s manager.

Grant Williams:

And was that collaboration of people on your level? Or was that just you just did what you were asked to do and just did your work?

Krisha:

You just did your bit. You did your bit.

Grant Williams:

Okay. So it was a very traditional employment structure? Well, in a public service point of view.

Krisha:

Yeah. I mean, I don’t really know what you mean by traditional, but it was very-

Grant Williams:

Well, I guess that’s always been my view is that here’s your job, here’s your role, here’s your job description, and either each day or each week or each month you’ll be given stuff to work on, you’ll be tasked, and then you did that stuff and you’re handed it up or you put it in the tray and someone else came and collected it.

Krisha:

Yeah. It was that sort of thing. I guess the reason why I was talking about the way that men naturally have their collaboration is because I wanted to make the point that, for women, going and seeing a career practitioner is something that you may have to be willing to go and pay for that service, because chances are you may not naturally have that in your ecology. So sometimes, unfortunately, it’s the people who are disadvantaged that then have to go and pay for those privileges that men often do experience in the workforce. So it’s a bit of a double whammy from a structural perspective that the very people who ideally should have access to career practitioners are in fact the ones that have to go and forsake a meal a week or whatever it is they have to do to go and access those resources.

Krisha:

But unfortunately that was my experience that if I hadn’t have gone and spoken to someone like Marina and if I hadn’t have come up with those funds, whatever it was I had to do to get to them, I don’t know that I would have actually progressed out of where I was. So it’s one of those awful systemic issues that we are dealing with, that if you’re privileged, you have lots of people around you all the time who are giving you career advice without you even knowing it, when you’re out on the golf course or when you’re at the pub or when you’re out for dinner at a barbecue. I simply wasn’t accessing that sort of information, and I had to pay for it.

Krisha:

I think that people feel ashamed of the fact that they have to go and pay for a career practitioner. They feel frustrated that they’re not necessarily knowing how to go and do things, and I think that is really something that in Australia we really need to address that. How do we move into a space whereby we can encourage people to go, “You know what? I don’t give myself a haircut. I’m happy to go and get to the hairdressers for a haircut. So why am I not going to a career practitioner if I don’t know what I need to do to progress my career?”

Marina Pitisano:

That’s a really good point because that is why I have the women that are in the workplace and then seek me out or seek a career practitioner. It’s all those frustrations. It’s the fact that they’re being overlooked or they’re waking up one day and realizing that they’re doing similar things for a long period of time and they want to do more, but they don’t know how to do it and they don’t have that support structure around them or who they can trust. So they then think, “I need to reach out to a professional or someone that can really guide me, because I’m really at a loss on what I have to do.”

Marina Pitisano:

If they’ve been trying for a long time, which is what happened with Krisha, they’re not sure what they’re doing wrong or they’re not sure how they need to promote themselves, because they’ve actually not done it in the workplace. They’ve not had the experience to have these conversations around validation and also being able to stand up and say, “I can break out of this box, I’m more than this box, and I can do more,” and being able to be heard, but also to be able to say that with conviction. They’re really struggling with that because in most cases they’re not being supported or they’re not being given the opportunity, so they don’t believe it.

Marina Pitisano:

So when you have to go out and sell yourself or try to aim for that promotion, you don’t have the belief or the resources to do it because that’s not been part of the environment or culture you’ve worked in. You limit yourself to your box, and you stay in that box until you realize, “I’m really getting frustrated here. I am not happy anymore.” It’s impacting their life. Their stress levels have gone through. They might end up even becoming ill and getting anxiety, and it’s at that point they realize this is becoming very toxic. “My job is toxic, my environment is toxic, and I feel toxic. I need to get out.” That’s why I would encourage people to not get to that point is to always focus, in every part of their career, on their career and start to look at how can I always look forward?

Marina Pitisano:

One of my blogs that I wrote was very much about 14 ingredients to manage your career. The first thing is always think about the future. What is it that you want to do in the future? Think about how you need to set yourself up for success, and really focus on that, because I think a lot of people have their heads down and bums up. They’re just getting through day by day. They know the tidal wave is coming, but they don’t want to see it. They’re just going to wait for it to wipe them out, and once you get wiped out, it’s takes a lot to come back, especially if you’ve worked in that toxic environment. So it’s really critical to always stay ahead of the game and be prepared and think about what you want to do in the future, and that way then you can break out of that toxic environment.

Grant Williams:

So, Krisha, once you’d been encouraged to make contact with Marina and you did that, when did the sunshine start to appear for you?

Marina Pitisano:

I can remember that.

Krisha:

It wasn’t long. Wasn’t long at all, was it, Marina?

Marina Pitisano:

It was one [inaudible 00:00:32:35]. I still remember where I was standing. Krisha rings me and tells me the story, and I’m just sitting there like, “Okay, Krisha. What are we going to do from here?” Do you remember that?

Krisha:

Tell me.

Marina Pitisano:

Shortly after we had the initial conversation, we had a few more conversations, because it’s wonderful talking to Krisha having nice conversations because-

Krisha:

Wonderful talking to Marina too.

Marina Pitisano:

… our conversations would go to many different places, but more so about opportunities. There was an opportunity in government that she wanted to go for. It was a short-term contract. It was something that required her Excel skills-

Krisha:

Oh, yeah. That’s right.

Marina Pitisano:

… and we prepared for it, and she was quite strong and quite …

Read the Transcript

Grant Williams:

It’s the Letz Create Your Career podcast. Our first guest … I’m Grant Williams, the co-host. And all I do is push buttons and move knobs and things like that.

Marina:

Hi, Grant. How are you?

Grant Williams:

Oh, Marina. Why are we doing this today?

Marina:

Because I’ve worked with a lot of people looking for career success. And I thought it would be great to tell their story, to hopefully inspire other people to create successes in their career.

Grant Williams:

Do you know anyone who’s been a success?

Marina:

Yes.

Grant Williams:

And that we might be able to talk to?

Marina:

Yes. I have my lovely friend I would say now, not just a previous client, Deepali, who’s going to share with us her story about her success in a career in Australia, considering she’s not from Australia but came to Australia many moons ago.

Deepali:

Thank you, Marina. Hi, Grant.

Grant Williams:

Hi, Deepali. Thanks very much for being our first victim.

Deepali:

I’m totally honored to be here.

Grant Williams:

Now, I would like to know … You’ve come from India.

Deepali:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

Which is currently dominating the world in cricket. They even want to take over the World Cup in football. They make arguably the best movies in the world. What made you come here to chase kangaroos and get bitten by snakes and spiders?

Deepali:

I think that’s a very interesting question, I must say, having spent most of my life in India. And I’ll give you a quick gist of my family and my upbringing as well. I come from a very middle class family. My father had a full-time job with a public sector unit and my mother, like most women in those days, a very obliged homemaker. And we were trained to focus highly on education, focus highly on doing very well for ourselves in our careers, and learning everything my parents could teach us.

Deepali:

I’ve been in the IT industry for over 20 years, and that gave me an opportunity also to travel and live around the world and work with large, multinational organizations. It was indeed a very logical step for me to look for a different and a better quality of life, lifestyle, I would say, as well as work opportunities. And Australia was a very obvious choice with everything Australia has to offer as a country in terms of work, in terms of opportunities and overall lifestyle.

Grant Williams:

I’m always interested to know when I speak to somebody from a Commonwealth country, a former British dominion, why did you want to come to Australia rather than Canada or New Zealand or perhaps even USA?

Deepali:

That’s a brilliant point. I actually did a comparison between Canada and Australia before I moved. I did not consider New Zealand so much. Being closer to Australia, I thought I’d start off at Australia. New Zealand is a place I would typically like to visit, not necessarily live for a long time per se. And between Canada and Australia at that point in time, it was purely based … I think both the countries had great opportunities and offerings in terms of work and the growth and development. One of my key reasons of choosing Australia was definitely the weather. It’s extremely cold in Canada, as against in Australia. And Australian lifestyle is very diverse mix of a balance between people focusing on work as well as life outside of work, whether it’s outdoors activities, sports, culture, music, theater. There’s just enormous number of things that people do where I thought Australia is the right fit for me.

Marina:

When you came to Australia had you already have a position in Australia, or did you arrive and had to navigate the market to find a role? What happened to you?

Deepali:

Yeah. When I decided I’d move to Australia, Marina, I initially applied for a permanent residency visa. And I came in just with two suitcases. I did not have enough connects in Australia as well as any job that was waiting on for me. And I had very little knowledge of the country or the job market in totality. And coming as a complete freshman, I would say, it was a totally new, uncharted territory for me to look at Australia and my life that would be in Australia thereafter.

Grant Williams:

Deepali, can I ask how long ago was that, that you made the decision to come to Australia?

Deepali:

This was four years ago. It’s not very long.

Grant Williams:

Now, did you think the career opportunities that were open to you, and this is when you were in India, before you’ve made the journey, did you feel that the industry you wanted to work in was fairly open to you?

Deepali:

I’d say I initially had a mixed experience. While on one hand, being in a technology industry, technology is quite region or location agnostic. Around the globe, it’s the same set of technologies, the latest ones that people work on, latest technologies that most companies would like to leverage, as well as in terms of how technology work is undertaken, it’s quite similar around the globe. And that’s expectation that I came with as well, especially having lived in a number of other countries. To me, it’s a picture of a Western world that I had in my mind.

Deepali:

And I’d say I had a mixed experience, wherein in terms of when we talk theoretically about the roles and the jobs and how the market operates, it’s very similar to how it operates in rest of the world. However, in terms of where I found it different was I believe people’s level of appreciation of when people come from different countries, what their backgrounds are. When we talk about skills, what do they really mean? And also an element where I believe there is a slightly additional level of proving that one has to do to be able to seen in the market, I would say.

Grant Williams:

Now of course, I have to ask you what other countries you’ve lived in. And when you lived in those countries, were you working in the same field? Were you working in IT at the time, or just having a good time?

Deepali:

The countries where I have worked and lived in are, I worked in the States. I’ve worked in the UK. I’ve lived in Canada as well. And India, of course. And I’ve always worked with large, multinational organizations. And I like that because the work culture in a large multinational is quite different from any organization that is focused on a specific region only. And having worked in different countries and with people from around the geography, it was quite different when I first landed in Australia, where I realized people would not know much about other countries and backgrounds of migrants in general. And a lot of the view is formed from what people would see in the documentaries or media, which is only I think a very small fraction of a percentage for that country. And this is not something which is unique to Australia. If you were to look at any other country, people who do not move globally would have a very, very narrow and a limited view of how the rest of the world operates. And the similar experience I had when I arrived in Australia.

Grant Williams:

Marina, can I ask you before we move on a bit-

Marina:

Yeah.

Grant Williams:

To just tease out something that Deepali said about the way people in different countries view the experience and perhaps the competence of people from different cultures. Do you think that in Australia we have some kind of ethnic or racial … Barrier’s not the right word. But prejudice towards people from Deepali’s culture in the IT industry?

Marina:

What’s interesting what Deepali’s saying, and what I’ve noticed and observed and how I’ve worked with people from other countries in Australia, is that they don’t really recognize their capability and ability. They actually dismiss it many times, because many times am I saying … Or organizations aren’t recognizing individual’s education. People that are trained and educated overseas, they’re actually not recognized here. If you don’t even recognize their education, which is what your skillset is formed through, and we simply side that and then start to look at experience, in some organizations the fact that you have had experience overseas is recognized. And possibly IT’s probably the one and only, because they’re appreciative of how far more advanced you might be. But in many cases, the recognition of these skills from overseas isn’t always primary. No.

Marina:

And I think that is probably what you were talking about, Deepali, and the fact that people are assuming what these cultures can offer. And what I heard from what you said is you’ve got a seniority. This is what I love and this is why I wanted to invite you, is that a lot of people think that the migrants are more blue collar. They’ve come to our country to take some of the roles that possibly, white Australians won’t.

 

Oh, I just wanted to say that. And that was what was great, is that there is more and more of these educated, amazing migrants coming to our country, which we can learn a lot from. And we’re actually dismissing them way too early simply because they haven’t got a visa, their visa prohibits them, or their recognition of their education … And sometimes even their experience isn’t as recognized as it should in Australia.

Grant Williams:

Deepali, that leads to a question in two parts. How did you find the Australian job market as an entrant, as an aspirant, really, before you had your position? And then once you secured a position, how did you find the workplace culture? Did you find that you were valued to the level or to the extent that you had been at home?

Deepali:

Sure. See, Grant, I had worked in the technology industry all through my life, and good thing was even after moving to Australia I did not have to and I did not intend to change my career or make a career move into another industry. And Australia has been quite welcoming, and the number of opportunities in the technology space are abundant. And I would say there are as many challenges as well. The opportunities are immense in terms of the types of roles, the types of organizations, the locations, the flexibility the organizations offer, and they’re world-class, I would say. In comparison to any other country in the world, Australian companies have really good benefits that they’re offering.

Deepali:

At the same time, as a new migrant and as an aspirant like you said, there are definitely initial challenges. One is to understand how the market operates in the first place, which is … I would say it has its own flavor in comparison to what I have seen in the other countries. The heavy reliance, definitely, on networking and the relationships is prominent. Which would happen in other countries as well. However, in the Australian market it’s quite more so. Especially it becomes important for a new migrant. Quite likely, majority people like myself would not have a previous network that they can rely on. And hence my first approach was to build my network with the recruiters that I was connecting with, and I heavily relied on the online channels to get to know about the organizations, understand how the market operates.

Deepali:

Beyond connecting with the recruiter for a job search, my initial view was to take input from them and get insights on the organizations, markets, roles, and what is that would work for me. And I’m really glad most recruiters would happily share all the insights. They would have industry trends available with them, there are then analytics that were available with them. And having connected with a number of recruitment firms, it also gave me a view as to how the recruitment industry itself is shaped here, where there’s a wide range of recruitment firms that deal with high-volume and low … Not quality, but they basically deal with high-volume recruitments as against headhunters and senior exec recruiters, as against recruiters who focus on understanding the candidate profile and the fitment before they place them to any client.

Deepali:

And having an understanding of the market was critical for me. I was able to also take insights on how I should position my experience, my candidature. And looking at not just about the CV and the cover letter, however, what the requirements were for the market and the demands were and how I could ensure that I stay and ensure that I have upped my game. Competition’s extremely high in Australia. One should not forget it’s a global market, and the people from all over the world who’ve come in. And people who mostly migrate to Australia are the top league peoples in their own, respective home countries. And hence ensuring that I am competent enough to be able to stay ahead in the queue, where for any role that’s published today across industry you have hundreds of applications within a few hours. And hence ensuring whether it was my credentials, certifications, my education or my experience, positioning. And beyond that, cultural fitment, that I’m able to portray best.

Deepali:

And beyond that, I think all of this in totality becomes quite demanding, I would say. Where as a new migrant, you’re definitely under the pressure to find the best available role and a job and be able to return back to a stable lifestyle that one had before. As well as the pressure of looking for a new job and the newness of the country and the job market. And at times also, I would say the response is not so positive, which is not very easy to deal with. And going through this entire emotional and psychological impact as well, one needs to ensure that they have their family and friends close. Seek as much help and take as much help as possible, and do not hesitate, is what I would say. Where typically in the past I would not approach so many people and ask for their inputs, but I think it was stepping out of my comfort zone to reach out to people I did not know and look for inputs and insights from them.

Grant Williams:

You said you reached out and got help from a number of people.

Deepali:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

How did you come across Marina?

Deepali:

That’s a very interesting story as well. I think it’s my lucky stars that I was able to connect and I was introduced to Marina. I was working with a large bank in Melbourne, and the bank decided to do a major restructure across all of their divisions. And as part of the restructure, one of the objectives was also to reduce the head count and go into different ways of working for the organization. And I came in touch with Marina as part of the organization’s offering for people who were either being made redundant or were looking to leave the organization for other opportunities. And it being a very large and, I would say, thoughtful organization, they decided they would have people like Marina come and help the employees in understanding the restructure as well as making decisions on whether they’d like to continue or move on to other opportunities.

Grant Williams:

What I guess I’m trying to draw out is Marina’s role in your, let’s call it a career story, a career journey. But it’s an upward trajectory that you’ve been on since you arrived.

Deepali:

Absolutely.

Grant Williams:

Marina’s part is quite late in your Australia journey. I hate that-

Marina:

What I was going to-

Grant Williams:

I hate that word because I feel like we’re talking about I’m a Celebrity … Get Me Out of Here!

Marina:

No, no, no, but I think what’s probably interesting for me is the fact that just listing to what you discovered when you arrived and what you needed to look for, which is networking and recruiters. And you discovered that, you researched that very thoroughly to make sure that you spoke to the right people, you got good insight to what was going on in the market, and also navigate the market. What was interesting for me listening to that, and now knowing that we worked together, is what helped you at that point of your career? In the sense that you’re quite smart, you’re quite intelligent, you’re a person that can take on your own resources and look for resources to help you. Where would someone like me or a career coach, how did someone like me help you navigate the market further in the next step of your career?

Grant Williams:

Can I just throw something else for you to add on to that question?

Deepali:

Absolutely, Grant.

Grant Williams:

Because I reckon it’s a gutsy move, to leave a job and turn up in another country without another job already organized. To me, that’s incredibly gutsy. Now, I’m assuming that, as you said, you came from a middle class background in India, so you had some kind of a runway. You had some kind of padding to see you through financially and with your social support. But what tools and what resources did you instantly know you needed to start using before you came here, that are available to everybody and that most people probably don’t use effectively? And how did they help you get in touch with and develop relationships with people like Marina?

Deepali:

Absolutely. Let me cover the story for you where, when I decided I would want to move overseas and have a new life and a new experience, I started also doing a further research on what I would want to do and how is that I can achieve it? One, I leveraged LinkedIn very extensively. And that was one of my golden sources, I would say, to look for organizations that operate out of Australia. I looked at the Glassdoor reviews as well and what people had to say about the companies. And also, I think keeping in mind that a lot of multinationals, while they have operations in Australia, however their remit for Australia and for other countries they operate in could be quite different. And hence, understanding what their remit in Australia was also important to me.

Deepali:

So I did a fair bit of research before I actually landed here, as well as I started connecting with the recruiters while I was still in India. And at that point, one of the important factors that came to my knowledge was Australian market looks for people that are locally available as against hire from overseas directly. And quite rightfully so, because it’s a very supply-rich industry here. And hence people who can join quickly, because they’re locally available, works better for everyone. And hence while I built some of the contacts while I was in India, and some of the recruiters were very kind to respond to me, they spoke with me, gave me all these insights at that point in time, and that helped me prepare before I came in.

Deepali:

When I landed in Australia, definitely going through that entire rigor of looking for a job. I made looking for a job as my full-time job, connecting with enough recruiters during the day, ensuring my applications are sent in time. I would follow up with a phone call to ensure people are able to speak with me, they can sense my personality, ask any questions that they have beyond a CV, which is maybe quite likely within the hundreds of CVs they would have received in the day. And if I had the opportunity to have a coffee catch-up, I would always offer that. And I think this entire approach of taking a job hunt or search for a job as a full-time job really worked really well.

Deepali:

And that’s one of the best advice I had from somebody, where I was very tempted to go in for a part-time job while I was looking for a full-time role that suited my skills and experience. But I stayed away from that temptation, and it helped me focus all my energies on finding the right role. And within a couple of months of my landing here, I had a full-time job that I was able to secure.

 

I think in terms of my engagement in Marina and career coaches in the past, working with career coaches, I see it as an investment in myself. And I’ve been very fortunate. Before I started working and courting the workforce in India, I used to assist a career coach in terms of them helping other students and other clients that they had. And it was more of an orientation for me to learn from others’ experience and see how coaching could change people’s lives.

Grant Williams:

Can I just step in there for a minute? You said one thing that really leapt out, and then you followed up with a smashing six over cow corner. You did two things that most people don’t do, and I want Marina to tell me why they’re really good. You were prepared to do a coffee catch-up, which a lot of people just don’t have the confidence to do. But it means you instantly step way beyond your CV, or any video that you’ve posted on your MySpace … MySpace. Facebook profile or whatever other people are doing. But you also took time to understand the industry by helping someone who is a career coach. You understood the processes involved in recruitment and career development, and to me that says you’re just an exceptional candidate. People will see …

Grant Williams:

Actually, let’s phrase that differently. Not that they’ll see. It will just be obvious to them when interviewing you that you are not like the 250 other applicants that have sent a resume in through the portal. Is that a fair statement, Marina?

Marina:

Well, Deepali is exceptional in the sense that she is able to have those conversations. And when we ask clients that they need to go and have conversations, it’s usually that they’re scared of stepping out of their comfort zone. Many of them think, “Who can I speak to? I don’t know these people.” And they actually don’t back themselves. And it’s important. It’s exactly what Deepali just mentioned, is that it’s about learning. It’s about reaching out to people, and it’s about having those conversations and navigating who you need to speak to. Many people don’t do their homework. They don’t do their research. They don’t also think about the way they’re going to approach it, grabbing people’s attentions and being able to drive a clear message on why they need to speak to people. What’s great about the Melbourne culture is that when you reach out, people will help. And I let people know that all the time. People are always willing to help you, but you have to reach out. You have to make those phone calls. The people that can do that are the ones that lead to success.

Marina:

The other thing that’s really come up, that’s really been noticeable is Millennials. Millennials and Y-Generation don’t like to call. They don’t like to follow up using calls. They like to email, send you a LinkedIn request, send you comments. Now that is great, but that can be overlooked quite easily. Deepali doing what she’s done and being able to drive her career through the conversations and navigating the market and speaking to people and highlighting them, those people have got to know her, have realized her potential, and have been able to place her accordingly for what she wanted. And not having the temptation to steer away from what you really want, and be able to really stay firm when there are so many competing priorities, is really a testament to why Deepali’s successful today.

Grant Williams:

For somebody who is looking to secure … I don’t want to just say a job, because for Deepali it was … You’re at quite a senior level now. Do you think, Marina, that people have to spend as much time looking at their personal skills in terms of being confident, being able to project the right information, which gives a recruiter or, if you contact directly someone in the company, a key person, a reason to get back to you? Do you think people spend enough time working on just something simple like that rather than spending 2,000 hours wondering about the margins and the font on their CV?

Marina:

Exactly. This is a two-part answer. Yes, the key to success is being able to frame the way you speak, how you speak and what you want to say to those key people. You have to be able to grab their attention and you have to be able to say, “I am the one you need to look for. I am the one that you need to invest in,” because as Deepali pointed out, there’s hundreds of applications someone receives. There’s hundreds of phone calls that they could get. And you need to be able to stand there confidently, clearly and articulately inform that person that you should spend time with me because I will be the right person for that job.

Marina:

And that is probably where I spend a lot of time having to coach people around how to have those conversations, how to drive that point. Now when it becomes more senior, like in Deepali’s situation, it’s probably they’ve got that quite strongly, they know themselves quite well. They know what they can achieve. It’s then being able to say, “Well, how do I stand out amongst men and women? How do I then navigate this market, and who are the real decision-makers that I need to speak to to be able to get my situation over the line?” in a market that is quite busy, there’s a lot around happening, but also they don’t know who you are.

Deepali:

And especially, Grant, and I would add to what Marina is saying, in case of migrants where we believe that we bring certain type of value to the table, but it’s important to ensure that that value resonates with what the hiring managers, hiring people, the companies are looking for. And be able to say it and position it in a way that they would be able to understand easily and best. And it’s all about, I would say, value proposition. As a candidate, what is the value that I’m adding to, for example, the recruitment agency? And if they see value in me, they’ll be happy to invest time, go after their clients saying, “Oh, I have this candidate, Deepali, and this is how she’ll fit into your organization.”

Deepali:

And similarly when I approach the organizations directly, I should be able to tell them as to how is that I would be able to add value to them, either by taking up a role or in a consulting way, through my education or experience. And it all at the end of it boils down to, as a candidate, my own understand of what my strengths are, what my experience is, what is that other person looking for, and connecting those dots. And Marina and other career coaches, they do a great job where they understand and they are very candidly able to tell somebody like me that, “Deepali, this is what you do well. This is maybe something you should reconsider.”

Deepali:

And in addition to, not just from a job prospective perspective. See, job prospective’s always just one point in time, event in your career. However, if you look at over all career, that’s where Marina … And in our conversations as well, Marina has helped significantly, is any point in time I have paused to look at what is that I want to do next, she’s been the sounding board for me. Having seen my journey so far, she’s able to say, “Deepali, this is what your personality is. This is what you think you would want to do. Are you sure you’re going to be happy?”

Grant Williams:

That’s a really interesting point that you raise, that you look at your career, if I heard you right, as not just securing a job but that every job and every task and every role that you are doing, is just one point along this continuum from … You started learning at school, or you started learning soon as you were sentient. And then right through your life, you’re developing new skills to take on new roles and achieve new goals and aspirations for yourself. That instantly puts you apart from … I don’t know if it’s a majority, but a great proportion of job seekers see themselves only as a job seeker. Whereas that limits where you can go. It also limits what you will chase, doesn’t it, Marina?

Marina:

Well, that’s interesting that you say that, is because where I work with a client initially, that is what they’re asking. “I need a job.” And it’s through working with them that they understand or they arrive to the realization that, “I need to think of this as a career.” Which is not just the destination today, but where is my long-term journey? Where is it that I want to do? And especially in a situation where someone has been made redundant.

Marina:

I remember asking Deepali this question, and she was like, “Oh.” Which was, “Well, Deepali. If we go for the next role, that’s great. But what ultimately do you want to achieve? Where do you ultimately want to go? And what does that 10-year goal look like? Because that really will impact what we do today.” And asking that question, which a lot of people might ask the question, but being able to spend some time in that space … Especially when there is something that’s happened that’s been quite traumatic, which is a redundancy or a loss of a job or a change of a job, what’s really important there is that a person then thinks, “That’s right. I have a time now to reflect on what is it that I want to do? And how do I now set up my next opportunities so that I achieve my ultimate goal?” Because a lot of people don’t have ultimate goals.

Grant Williams:

Deepali, did you find that situation that you were in, that brought about your meeting Marina, did you find that traumatic in terms of a career development standpoint?

Deepali:

Grant, I will be very candid. All through my career I’ve made so many changes in my jobs, and I’m the kind of person who likes to stay on my toes all the time. Any job change, whether it’s to do with organization’s restructure, initiated by another external factor, or whether it’s my own decision, it’s just another event in my career. And I just move on.

Grant Williams:

That’s exactly what I expected you to say. Because some people are very different to you, and see that any change in circumstance that is related to employment to be deeply personal and a huge blow to the confidence. But that’s obviously not something that affects you. What would you say to somebody who is faced with a change?

Deepali:

Anything to do with change or difficult situations, I think the first thing is to not take things personally. Situations happen with everyone, and especially aspects where it’s restructures, redundancies, layoffs or a job change, career change. Rather, they have a significant benefit in the longer run because you get to try new things. And having that positive attitude and positive mindset, and looking at what you can draw best out of any situation, I think that’s what keeps me going all the time. As well as any job change when as an individual or an employee, when I decide to change a job it’s same as the company deciding that they don’t want thousands of people any more. It’s no different. It’s just mentally how prepared we are about it.

Deepali:

And circling back to the point in terms of the support that we have, even if psychologically any change that we’re not prepared for impacts slightly initially, I think the key lies to quickly overcoming it and getting to an action mode, looking at what is that next you want to do, taking enough support from wherever you can and getting to the outcome that one is looking for. It would be rare, especially in the technology world today, that somebody would have spent their entire career with a single organization. That does not happen at all, and hence keeping oneself market-ready, that’s a golden rule I go by. Even when I have spent years with a single organization, I have always ensured year after year that I’m market-ready. I keep myself upskilled. I go to certifications. I study, even if I do not have the time and the willingness, so much. It’s not easy, I would say, but it’s extremely important. And keeping yourself upskilled and ahead in the game for the industry so that the industry should be ready to pick you up any time you want to go and find something else, that’s critical.

Deepali:

And working with Marina, I would say. It’s important at times where, like any other person, I also get into self-doubt at times. Am I good enough or not? Am I cut for this aspect or not? Or, is this a far-fetched goal? Am I targeting and getting too ambitious? And that way, especially coming into a new country where at times, and initially especially I would say, I used to try and analyze whether what I’m thinking, from the standards here, does it match up or not? And having conversations around those lines really helped me, taking insights from Marina where she would be able to confirm and say, “Deepali, irrespective, this is how it is in the country here or in other countries,” for example. Or the organizations here.

Deepali:

And having those candid conversations one, there was I would say an avenue for me to talk to somebody. Somebody like Marina, who has a wealth of experience behind her in the Australian market. And hearing from her definitely, I think, removed a lot of self-doubts that I had. It confirmed a number of aspects that I was looking for, and overall it brought me into a more confident state than I would have been maybe three years ago.

Marina:

And I think that’s what’s really important about what we mean by career coaching. Because different people have different needs and different levels. As you can see with Deepali, Deepali is very independent, very self-sufficient. It’s just more the check-in. It’s like she’s running a marathon and she’s got check-in points and I’m used as a checker. Like, okay, I’ve got to this check-in point, so what do you think? How do you think I’m traveling? How do you think I’m doing these exercises? How do you think I’m approaching the market? How do you think my resumes are? Is my resume ready? Is it okay to drive? In what ways do I do it?

Marina:

However, that’s Deepali and her needs, whereas when I’m working with other people or other requirements, there’s more needs around how do we build the resume? How do we build the cover letters? What you were talking about. How do I actually speak to a recruiter? How do I actually work with LinkedIn? And how do I actually get out there and have conversations? It’s really important that people’s career journeys are extremely different and require many different aspects, and that’s probably why having this opportunity to talk about people’s stories gives people an insight of where are they in their career journey? What is it they need? Do they need a sounding board? Do they actually need hand-holding? Do they actually need expert advice? Do they really need that initial step of crafting the resume? Do they need career planning? It’s really interesting with what you highlighted that people at very different levels require different information.

Marina:

And what I’m curious to know, based on what you’ve just said, is that when you got into … You told us your journey of getting in. But once you were in, what do you think are the tools? Or, what do you think is the mindset? Or, what advice would you give people on how to navigate the internal cultures of these organizations? If someone said to you, “I really want to work for these organizations. How do I now bring my best forward in those organizations?” What would you say? Especially when they’re migrant, either senior or junior, and they’re actually women. What would you say?

Deepali:

It’s very interesting you brought this up, Marina.

Marina:

I love these subjects.

Deepali:

And I think with every question I keep, at the back of my mind, the thought I have is how beautiful it is to have somebody like you along my career journey where you understand my skills, my expertise, my personality. And while I’m walking or running through my, like you said, the marathon of my career, but being able to turn around and ask somebody, “Oh, this is the event I’m going for. Do you have any guidance, any pointers?” And Marina, you’re so flexible, whether I could call you at nine o’clock in the night or in the morning. Having that support and help, it’s critical.

Deepali:

And I felt that need, like you were asking about being at the workplace where once I was part of different roles and different organizations, I thought besides looking at what my role requirements were and how best I could deliver the objectives I was hired for, I think one of the critical aspects for me was networking and building rapport with people around me. And I like doing that anyhow, I think, as part of my personality. I like to engage with people across levels, across departments. But I realized it was even more important, more so in the Australian context, where people did not necessarily understand me beyond me being a migrant or performing a certain role. And they had very little appreciation for my background. And different organizations that I work with I’ve had variety of questions being asked, to the extent people have asked me if people in India have milk cereal, or is that something that I’ve learnt after I moved to Australia?

Grant Williams:

That’s actually quite relevant though, because it’s only a very recent thing that milk and dairy products have become almost a staple in the middle class and upper class in India.

Deepali:

I would not say so. We’ve had milk and cereal all through my life. I’m into, I think, on higher side of my middle … I’m going through my mid-life crisis, in a way.

Grant Williams:

I heard something on the BBC about this yesterday, that the dairy industry in India has grown 700% in the last five years. And they are now importing a huge amount of dairy cows to support this growth of milk and cheese consumption in India.

Deepali:

It’s amazing, Grant. It’s specifically about dairy. India has lived on agriculture and dairy all through its life. And there is mention of milk and milk products in the mythological books and stories, I would say. And when we talk about all this growth and the documentaries, especially from BBC and some of the American research firms, they are catered … I think they are very much from a Western perspective. And the growth is from an economic development.

Deepali:

However, in terms of how India or any other country is, one should look at quite likely their latest dramas, I would say, their movies, talk to people. And the best thing is visit the country. Even a couple of weeks of visit and you’d realize where the countries are. And I’d be very amazed if I would find any country on the globe today which is not as Westernized as the States or Australia, I would say. India has all American and the British and European brands today. And it’s not just today or last 10 years. We’ve had all of this for a lot of years.

Deepali:

And see, the reason I brought up this entire aspect was it’s not the case to say India is not developed or developed. It’s not about India. It’s about people’s understanding and the amount of effort they have to put when they meet you. While we focus a lot on migrants and the challenges they have et cetera, I also feel as a country, as Australia, we should maybe do a little more where the people who are already here, we do not understand about other countries so much. Before I came to Australia, if you were to ask me questions about Australia I would not know beyond the kangaroos and the Outback and the beaches. But I know much more after having lived here.

Grant Williams:

But if we want to be totally, brutally honest, and I want to ask you a couple of hard questions in a minute. But even in Australia, we don’t know that much about ourselves. We celebrate Australia Day on a date which represents when a white man stepped onto Australian soil, not for the first time, but to actually proclaim a specific part of the land as a British colony, to establish a colony. But it’s not the day that Australia was established. And most Australians, if you talk to them about Australia Day, will say, “Oh, it’s the day that Australia became a nation.” No, it’s not. It’s the day that New South Wales began. But people are ignorant of all sorts of things.

Grant Williams:

I want to ask you whether you found the process of getting a position in Australia, and then moving through your progression in Australia, did you find the culture, the workplace culture specifically, to be discriminatory against you because you’re a woman? And I don’t mean that there was heavy discrimination. But is it just really everyone assumes that the man should get the job and should be the boss? And it’s just something that’s there in the background, it’s the dominant culture. And extending that a bit further, did you find that the decision-makers were ignorant of your skills and background and experience and the level of technical competence and development in your equivalent roles in India? Do you think everyone just thought, “Ah. It’s obviously better here in Australia”?

Deepali:

Yeah. I think you’ve raised a very prevalent point there, and this is one challenge that most migrants highlight when they say they usually get a response that you do not have a local experience. And that’s what alludes to the aspect that locally, people who are in the decision-making positions, most of the people who work with the recruitment firms, they would have to a certain extent a view as to the skills, qualifications of people coming from overseas. But not always so much, I would say, where they understand what’s a fitment. And it takes a fair bit of effort on the decision-maker, the recruiter’s part, to be able to understand and do the right fitment to the roles as well.

Deepali:

And also the aspect of, I would say, resistance to the unknown and the resistance to the something which is different. It’s safe to get people start at maybe one or two levels junior than what they would otherwise fit into, would match with. And let them know that we’ll build it up further from that.

Grant Williams:

Is that what happened to you?

Deepali:

It did. And I was all right initially, and I was all right to go one step back but not too many, I would say. Keeping in view that I did have very candid, open conversations talking about where my experience and strengths were, as well as an understanding that six months down the line or one year down the line, I would look to come back to the level where I should be. At the same time-

Grant Williams:

Did that timetable work out for you?

Deepali:

Coincidentally, I moved on from those organizations before I hit those timelines. And we parted ways, but we parted ways on very good notes where they understood that the next role that I was taking up was definitely a closer match to my strengths and skills, and they couldn’t have offered that.

Grant Williams:

You stepped up?

Deepali:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

And out at the same time.

Deepali:

That’s right.

Grant Williams:

Did you know that you weren’t going to get that elevation at the six month time? Could you feel that, and is that why you were looking out and up already?

Deepali:

See, it happened in one situation where I moved out for this very reason. And it was mostly because the role that I was hired for, the way it was described at the time of joining, once I joined it seemed very different. And what was elaborated in terms of size and scale, it finished within three months’ time. And the organization coincidentally did not have anything further in the pipeline for me.

Grant Williams:

That was a clickbait application that they put out there, was it? Sorry to be glib. How about the gender part of the equation?

Deepali:

I do feel, I think while on one hand a lot of my experience has been very positive, there are definitely people in senior positions who are very open to recruiting people based on their talent and the skills as against their gender. And they’re very open, irrespective of where you come from. And whether the CV bears a certain name or not they are very, I think, thorough in their assessment.

Deepali:

At the same time, I would say there is still an element where I felt at time that as a woman, or rather generally as women we are expected to prove much more than men when an application or an opportunity arises. Men are usually given that opportunity based on their perceived potential, and as women we’re asked to prove again and again and the opportunity is given maybe with a view that, “Let’s try it out for you and let’s see how you do.” And that’s something that I find extremely challenging, that the amount of effort I as an individual have to put forward and prove myself to even get the opportunity at the same level or next. That becomes pretty intense, I would say.

Grant Williams:

Marina, I know you want to say something about the workplace culture that is not overtly discriminatory, but discriminatory in two ways. That overseas experience is never counted as highly as local experience. But also that there’s this patronizing view that with the woman of equal skills, we’ll start you a couple of rungs lower. How do you counsel your clients to deal with that? Is it something where you just have to swallow it and adapt to it and then put your planning for your advancement longer term? Or do you try and actually overcome it at the point?

Marina:

Well, it was interesting what you’ve asked me, because in my past experience as a HR manager, and working in cultures, that’s what I was fighting against. And I would call it a fight because we were out there, and this is now taking me back 10 years.

Grant Williams:

And companies will never admit that they do this. They will never admit that the woman who comes in with equivalent levels of experience and equivalent amount of time and experience-

Marina:

And what I recall back of that was very much the boys’ club. That really existed at a time that, back then. I was very fortunate that as a senior HR manager, I was not part of the boys’ club but I was absolutely respected, so I was able to stand up for these situations in the cultures and challenge them on ensuring that women like yourself did not have to prove themselves or take on something lesser simply because they were of a different sex. Ten years later, my role being external to the organizations, it is very much about now encouraging women to not accept those situations. To be able to argue that and be able to put their value proposition forward so that … Men or women, because don’t always assume it’s men. Men and women will-

Grant Williams:

Oh, no. That’s why I say it’s a subtle bias.

Marina:

Men and women will take that person on for the value and they will pick the right person. When it comes to organizations and what happens in organizations, I’m not as involved in that process as I used to be. What I’ve noticed is leadership is still as frustrating as ever. I don’t think we’ve advanced as much. I think that they have moved much more forward when it comes to flexibility of opportunities for men and women. They’ve moved a lot more forward. All our rights and our discrimination laws and stuff have really helped them understand that they’re not allowed to do … What they’re meant to do. I think there is. It’s much more subtle, and I think it’s what you learn from people like Deepali when they’re in the organizations where they can see this. What I wanted to ask Deepali is if I was someone coming into Australia, coming from a migrant background, be it whatever, having to navigate the market and then going into the cultures, what advice would you give them?

Deepali:

See Marina, I would say in general women do not have it easy at the workplace. And women who are migrant or women of color definitely do not. With that, also I think it’s an appreciation that at a certain level of seniority, where skills like being driven, outcome-oriented, being able to speak up, being able to lead, these are required skills of an individual. It’s more acceptable for men to demonstrate these skills, while not so much for women.

Grant Williams:

Women don’t exercise leadership or confidence in being outspoken. And that means they’re bossy, pushy, overbearing.

Deepali:

Absolutely.

Grant Williams:

I mean, it doesn’t seem to have changed much since, well, certainly as far as my memory extends back. And if, you say, there’s a cultural benchmark by watching TV programs and whatnot from the dominant culture from the 1950s and ’40s and ’30s. And still, if four people in a white coat come into a hospital room and one of them’s a man, you can bet the patient will go to the man, “Doctor, what’s wrong with me?”

Grant Williams:

And in today’s situation, he’s just as likely to be a nurse.

Deepali:

Yeah, I’m so much with you on this one, Grant and Marina. Overall when we look at various women forums as well … And it’s very impressive how a lot of organizations are putting time and effort creating diversity forums and running a lot of initiatives, projects around it. But I sense there’s, I think, increased participation from whether it’s men, women or non-conforming genders that’s required. Just telling women that you need to be more assertive or you need to speak up, I think that’s something we’ve done for so long. Women are there already. We need somebody to listen to us as well as being able to action on what women in the workforce have been saying for so long.

Deepali:

And if I were to talk about the advice that I would have, for women in particular, especially migrant women, one I definitely say don’t let anyone tell you what a woman should or should not do. Just do what you want to do. And don’t hesitate, is the rule I go by. Whether it’s about reaching out to people for drinks in the evening or even if you have parenting, childcare duties later on, make time once a week, once a month, some time to do things that you enjoy doing at work with people. Don’t just get bogged down with your day-to-day life. Ensure that you’ve reached out and made the best of what any other man in your position would have done, whether in the job that you’re doing, whether in your personal life, and achieve the best out of it. I think considering gender as a factor in making a decision on what you do and do not do, just throw that out of the door and just make decisions the way you would [inaudible 00:58:44].

Marina:

And I think you’ve touched on a really good point. And that’s why I was probably being challenged by your question, is that I think because I’m not internal and because I’m not part of any cultural structure, and I can support someone externally, I don’t really allow the gender bias or gender concerns to hold any weight. I think regardless of whether you’re a male or female and you’re pursuing a particular career, let’s go for it. And I think that with your story, with what we’ve heard today, you’ve been aware of the culture, you’ve been aware of the challenges, and you’ve been able to overcome them through your intelligence or your research or your diplomacy. You’ve been able to really achieve a level of success by understanding what is going on and dealing with it.

Marina:

And I think that’s my approach as well, is that don’t allow what you think, these assumptions, to hold back. Let’s go for the opportunity, let’s look at what’s available, let’s really put our best foot forward, let’s really promote ourselves as best we can. And if we do feel that we’re in a disadvantage for whatever reason, we need to actually do exactly what you mentioned before, is prove why we’re better. And prove why. And if that means that it does take a little bit more time or a bit more effort, so what? Because that’s what it’s all about, that we can do it and that we have that self-belief, and therefore we will be able to achieve it. I think I’m very fortunate that I am working with people that are trying to get into these places. And it’s all about resourcing them on how to manage their career in these places as best they can, regardless if they’re men or women.

Grant Williams:

Now Deepali, we’ve held you a lot longer than we had agreed. I’ve just got one final question for you, and that is if you rewind, going back four years plus, would you make the journey exactly again? Would you decide Australia is it? You happy here? Or would you deviate slightly?

Deepali:

It’s a big yes, to be very frank. It’s a big yes, I would do the same journey again. I believe for everyone, definitely it’s a big leap people take when they do international relocation. Not just coming into Australia, but people moving to other countries as well. And once you’ve overcome the initial challenges and once you’ve … When I say challenges, the initial hurdles of finding a job, settling in, making friends, going back to your stable lifestyle the way one would have had before, Australia is a beautiful country. People here are beautiful. The values Australia stands for is amazing, and you see people live those day in and day out, especially cities like Melbourne and Sydney. They’re so diverse, but they have so much to offer for everyone, whether you’re a theater person, or a music person, or a movie buff, or an outdoors activities, adventure. And there’s so much more that you can achieve out of life than just look at, “Oh, I’m looking for another job.” And just live the life to your fullest. And I would do it all over again.

Grant Williams:

Marina, how would you want to wrap up for the person who’s listening who is in the situation that Deepali was in four years ago? Perhaps not looking to change countries, but looking to change career or step up and is unsure of where to start.

Marina:

Well, it’s been a real pleasure, Deepali, listening to your story. I mean, I was aware of it and that’s why I was really keen to have you here. And I’m so proud that you were one of our first speakers on your career journey. Because I think that what Deepali highlighted today around all the tools and the tips and her approach in really navigating the market, looking at having those conversations, reaching out to people, understanding the challenges, understanding the obstacles, but finding ways to deal with them and overcome them really came through in your story today.

Marina:

And I think that is probably what these podcasts are all about, is being able to articulate those areas, articulate what are the needs, articulate what the obstacles or the challenges, and then being able to look at how do we overcome them and what were the techniques? What were the processes? What were the behaviors that were used to overcome that? And I think that that’s what was pointed out today. And I think this is what our podcasts are all about, is being able to tell a story, learn from that story, and hopefully inspire someone to drive their story using the insights that we’ve talked about today.

Grant Williams:

Deepali, thanks so much for giving us your time and sharing. I’m sure that anybody who listens will learn far more than I did. I hate using the words like inspired and whatnot but as I said right at the start, it’s such a gutsy move to change countries. And you didn’t step into a job. You took a blind leap of faith. And to me, that is inspiring because it’s just so scary. And just having taken that positive action to make a change in your life, I think it sets the karma ship going. And I reckon anybody who’s listening and is considering a change in career, life … I was going to say family, but you can’t really make the choice to change family so much. But just by taking action, you start off that momentum and you break the inertia and off it goes. And I reckon you’re one of those great assets that migration for Australia has benefited from greatly. And thanks for being number one.

Deepali:

Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Marina, Grant. It’s great opportunity to be able to share my story. And it’s lovely speaking with you.

Grant Williams:

And Marina, you’re the master motivator, the creative genius, the employment manipulator. Let’s give you a whole heap of crazy titles.

Marina:

I love all those titles. I love you, Grant, for doing me all those titles. That’s great.

Grant Williams:

I’m going to come up with one that sticks. For anybody who is in the process of changing careers or thinking about making a move, whatever, and they’ve got a question or they’ve got a question for us to tackle on the podcast, how should they get in touch with you?

Marina:

Very easily. Just send me an email to my email address, Marina@LetzCreate.com.au. Letz is L-E-T-Z, C-R-E-A-T-E. Please just reach out to me, ask whatever question. No question is stupid. Reach out to me, ask me what you need. Tell me about your story. Let me know where you’re at and where possibly I can help you. Please, if you need anything, just reach out to me.

Grant Williams:

I’ve been Grant Williams. I will be back with you and Marina with another fantastic, inspiring guest just like Deepali on our next installment. If you think it’s been useful and you know somebody who could benefit, share it. Share the podcast. Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts. That’s it. See you next time.