Overcoming the risks of leaving a senior role to explore new opportunities.

Renaldo was in a senior leadership role when he decided he wanted a change. His role was no longer satisfying and he wanted to find a job that was more closely aligned to his values. Renaldo took the risk – he left the security of his role but didn’t quite count on feeling lost and frustrated while job searching. He quickly realised he needed the support of a professional Career Coach. Marina helped Renaldo with positioning himself so that potential employers could see how much value he offered.

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[00:00:00] Grant Williams: [00:00:00] 11 recording. There we are. Let’s create your career. The podcast on Grant Williams. Here we are still in a isolation, but it’s about. maybe be lifted is the good news. So that’s only a couple of weeks, so it might be a month away. So there’s an end in sight. I produce and ask the simple questions here.

[00:00:29] Every time we do this,  I’m joined by the greatest job search coach in Australia.  And I believe the English speaking world Marina Pitisano, how are you?

[00:00:44] Marina Pitisano: [00:00:44] I’m really well, Grant, you’re getting better and better at this all the time. I’m becoming a bigger and bigger coach now in Australia, so thank you for that beautiful introduction.

[00:00:56] I really appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Grant Williams: [00:00:58] And the English speaking world, but I’m not sure whether that includes America, because do they speak English?

[00:01:05] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:05] And I’m thinking,

[00:01:06] Grant Williams: [00:01:06] yeah, I’m not convinced. Marina, we do this to help people, navigate the journey of a career change or finding a job or,  leaving a job and finding another job or changing directions completely.

[00:01:27] And today we have another one of your [00:01:30] clients, former clients. And we’re, we’re moving beyond the expert tips and we’re going back to the story.

[00:01:40] Marina Pitisano: [00:01:40] That’s right, and today I’d love you all to meet Renaldo. Renaldo was made redundant. He’s a senior CFO, I’m chief financial officer or accounting manager and senior and Renaldo share.

[00:01:57] We’ll share with you his story of how, when he, what happened when he was made redundant, how he had to approach job search and you know, what was his, approach direction and how we work together to achieve a great result that, and he’ll share that with you around what he ended up achieving. So Ronaldo, welcome to, Letz Create Your Career podcast.

[00:02:21] Really happy to have you here.

[00:02:25] Renaldo: [00:02:25] Thanks  Marina and thank you Grant, and thank you for inviting me to the podcast. And if I can just say, before we kick off, I wasn’t actually made redundant. I just wanted to leave, leave the role, with some stuff that was going on in the background that, sorry, just to clear that up, I actually

[00:02:40] Marina Pitisano: [00:02:40] list, can we start it again?

[00:02:44] Grant Williams: [00:02:44] Sure we’ll, we’ll, we just get, you can just do your bit again and I’ll just edit out from there.

[00:02:53] Marina Pitisano: [00:02:53] So what was your role previous to that? Cause I can still remember say a five, but what was your role.

[00:03:02] [00:03:00] Renaldo: [00:03:02] I would see a fire finance manager, financial controller, director

[00:03:05] Marina Pitisano: [00:03:05] of all those roles. For previous,

[00:03:10] Renaldo: [00:03:10] I was the senior senior finance leader for a, an aged care promoter

[00:03:15] Marina Pitisano: [00:03:15] as senior finance

[00:03:19] Renaldo: [00:03:19] lead for a, an aged care disability services

[00:03:23] Marina Pitisano: [00:03:23] promoter. Yeah. Great. Alright, so I’ll start that again. So yes. Great. I’d like you to now meet Rinaldo,  Rinaldo actually was in a role that he decided to leave and went straight into job search.

[00:03:40]He was the senior finance leader in his previous role, but wasn’t satisfied in the longer, wanted to actually find something that was going to make his values be able to add a lot of value. And actually move on. So please say hello to Renaldo. Renaldo lovely, too. Lovely that you can join us today. So welcome.

[00:04:02] Renaldo: [00:04:02] Thanks for Marina. Thank you Grant, and thank you to both of you for having me on. Great.

[00:04:08]Grant Williams: [00:04:08] Renaldo it’s, it’s always a pleasure to, to hear how, somebody came into the Marina’s orbits, so you will. You were in a, well, let’s hide the most pretty much the musher sponsor will job. You can have. In an organization other than being the CFO, because [00:04:30] you’re, you’re responsible for doling out all the cash and for keeping control on who’s spending the cash as a CFO.

[00:04:38] CFO is a, an equivalent title, isn’t it? For for what you were doing?

[00:04:43]Renaldo: [00:04:43] Definitely. Definitely. For sure. I think with, with my role in particular and working in the not for profit space as well, there’s a degree of, Senior business leadership and strategic leadership that you’re showing the role. But a lot of the time when you’re working in the not for profit space, you’re also doing a lot of hands on work as well.

[00:05:01] So, from my point of view, the role was becoming a bit, what’s the, what’s the word I was getting? I was becoming a bit stagnant in the role and I was just feeling like I wasn’t developing where I wanted to go with the role. And, so I decided to take the risk and actually leave my position. And look at and explore for new opportunities.

[00:05:21] Grant Williams: [00:05:21] So did you, did you decide to take the risk and, and and actually leave before you had any other idea of what. What you could step into. And had you, had you finished your employment before you contacted Marina?

[00:05:42]Renaldo: [00:05:42] Yeah, I definitely finished my employment before I contacted Marina. So yeah, I was getting a bit frustrated and a bit, lost in myself in terms of the role that I had been doing.

[00:05:51] And I just felt like it was time to move out, step back and, and try and assess where I want it to go with, with my skills and my experience. [00:06:00] And so therefore the I, yeah, I took the risks, I would say the say, or made the decision to leave the role that I had, which was quite a senior role. And certainly, in terms of payer remuneration was, it was quite cold as well.

[00:06:13]but then I decided to leave. It took some time off and the searching for a role in the job market without any support. And I did start to find that, I probably felt like I knew myself, what I could bring to the table. What I probably needed the help of someone who was an experienced person who could, give me the help and advice and the guidance to, to really help bring my skills and my experience and more and more say, my presentation skills.

[00:06:40] So the table went on. It wasn’t, in the first systems trying to get my CV across, applying for roles, but then also when meeting with organizations as well. So I knew what I could bring or I just needed someone to help me, better align my, my skill search with the jobs, but also better align my presentation.

[00:06:58] As well to make sure that potential organizations could see what I can bring to the table. And that was the number one reason why I apply. I’m forced out someone like Marina.

[00:07:07]Grant Williams: [00:07:07] Well, we know that Marina is excellent at doing all of those things and we’ll, we’ll find out how that happened with you. But, before we, we get there, how long did it take you?

[00:07:19]well, let, let’s look at it to us. Did you work out, did you work off like a period of notice with you? Previous employer and, and. And then [00:07:30] go straight into maybe four weeks of having a holiday or something like that. How long did it take you from leaving your employer to contacting Marina, but also did you work out, work out a standard period of notice?

[00:07:48] Renaldo: [00:07:48] Yeah, so I definitely worked at a period of, of dynamism, and then this sort of, yeah, take some time off. And then I approached Marina to help me out with, How are putting to play a process to find a new role.

[00:08:01] Marina Pitisano: [00:08:01] So what was interesting about Renaldo Grant was that he actually left his job. He left his job because he wanted to move on.

[00:08:08] So he reached out to me after he was, he had never guided the market, and yet, done some job searching and was a thing to a certain level struggling with that. He wasn’t, you weren’t long on job search where you were an elder before you came to me. yeah. So he only was out for a couple of weeks, but he actually left and what I find, so Renaldo why did you choose to leave.

[00:08:34] So it’d be nice for the listeners to hear, cause a lot of people go through this, which is do I leave and go and find a job or should I find a job while I’m in a current job? Why did you choose to leave and then look for a job? What, what was, what was the rationale behind that?

[00:08:52] Renaldo: [00:08:52] Well, there was obviously some stuff going on at work as well.

[00:08:56] I was in the leadership team into a new [00:09:00] CEO had arrived with as well. Not long. before as well. And he certainly had, a new way of going about it as well. And so I just felt like at times, my, my values and what I thought I could bring to the table weren’t being used to the best advantage of the organization.

[00:09:15] And, I just, after maybe a couple of discussions with the CEO, I just felt like that my, the use of what I could bring wasn’t probably being sourced in the best possible way from my point of view. So I felt like, well, you know what? It’s probably a good time to sort of move on and look for a new opportunity.

[00:09:34]I spoke to the, to the CEO. He had some planes as well in, in the next, in the new year about what he wanted to do with, with some of the changes at the organization as well. And I felt like I didn’t fit in with, we’re always looking to do as well. So I felt like, well, you know what? It’s probably a good time to leave.

[00:09:51] Take some time off. I think the important thing was to have some time off as well. So just refresh it. Understand what it is I’m looking for. Cause when you’ve been looking, sorry, when you’ve been doing a role for a long time, as I had been for 13 years in leaders in, in senior leadership roles, especially in finance, we can become a bit, stagnant or a bit, not complacent, but a bit, gold in terms of some of the things that are going on.

[00:10:14] You’re looking for new challenges you’re looking for to make a difference. And certainly I felt like, I wasn’t getting what I wanted to, to make the role, more appealing to what I’ve done in the past. So I thought, now I’m going to take some time off, step back, have a bit of a time, have a bit of a break.

[00:10:29] And then I [00:10:30] started to look for new roles. And certainly the thing I learned from, when I made the decision is that I knew beforehand that the Christmas period probably wouldn’t be a great time to start looking for a new role. But certainly, Making the decision to to leave, take some time off, and then start looking in the new year.

[00:10:47]It was a quiet time of the year, so that’s sort of added to the, to the frustration of the prices of trying to find a new role quickly. But yeah, so from my point of view, it was a matter of, well, let’s now start looking for a new job. It wasn’t working as well as I would have liked. I did feel like I probably wasn’t doing some things very well.

[00:11:05] Certainly when you’ve been doing jobs for a long time and haven’t been actively looking for a position. You’re probably not as, understanding of what it takes to get a new role or even to get an interview first. And that was some of the reason why I contacted, Marina, because obviously the way I, the way I used it was the fact that when you’re working, you outsource things that you don’t do very well, and you pay professionals to bring that value to the organization.

[00:11:32] So the perspective I had was that, why not engage someone who does this for a living? We actively tries to find people or help people find a job. So you, someone who’s a professional in that environment. So basically I was outsourcing that part of the process and that’s how I thought about, getting Marina on board to help me with that.

[00:11:50] First of all, getting my CV into a position where I felt that it would highlight my skills and my experience, but then also align me with the roles that I was [00:12:00] looking for. And then once I got an interview helped with the process of actually making sure that during the interview I was well prepared.  And making sure that I could make the potential employers see where the value was in, in my experience, in my capacity in that.

[00:12:15] That all led to my relationship with Marina and helping me actively look for new jobs and finally, in the end, secure a new role.

[00:12:26]Grant Williams: [00:12:26] With. You didn’t have any, a conflict going on with the, with the new CEO, by the sound of it. It just was a diverging pathway. They were, you needed a change. There was change coming whether you locked it or not.

[00:12:43] And, it was just an opportunity, yet

[00:12:47] Renaldo: [00:12:47] There was no conflict. There was just a, you know, that happens all the time and you say, y’all will come on board and he’ll rearrange it. The leadership team, he’ll restructure, he’ll focus on particular areas of the organization. And, and certainly he wanted to go in a direction that I felt was probably not to the best direction of the organization.

[00:13:04] So at times we had robust discussions about revenue and income streams that I felt were, were being neglected, and therefore we decided to, as I said, he was having a one direction. I had another. I just felt like it probably wasn’t gonna help me in terms of my professional development. So I thought, well, it’s better for me to maybe look at new opportunities and see what else is out in the market.

[00:13:26] Grant Williams: [00:13:26] So

[00:13:26] what,

[00:13:27] sorry, Marina, just before you, you [00:13:30] take over the, the, the next step on the journey. All I wanted to be sure of renown. I was, when you, when you had the, had the bright, did you feel really re charged and fresh ready to take it on? Or did you have a period of, sort of frustration building because of the not, not securing the interview.

[00:13:55] Renaldo: [00:13:55] Oh, look, I wouldn’t say I felt refreshed and recharged, I think. I think when you’re. Ideally, I would suggest to people out there that you don’t look, you don’t leave a role without having a role to go to. Ideally in a perfect world, you’d secure a new role and then give notice and leave. But with my circumstances, I just was getting a bit frustrated with myself and, I wasn’t enjoying the role and I felt like, we know what I’m going to take this research.

[00:14:18] I’d never done it before. I’d never been without a job. And so, I decided, well, you know what, let’s take the risk and have some time off. And I looked at it as been my long service cause I’d been working for, consistently since 1994. And so from my point of view was actually, I’m going to take my long service leave.

[00:14:37] That’s how I looked at it. But, but when you were looking for a role and you don’t have a position of work, it can be like a roller coaster. There’s days that you’re having some good days, you’re getting good feedback. You’re getting phone calls for positions and things like that. Then there’s some days when you’re not getting feedback at all.

[00:14:53] You’re getting a bit frustrated with some of the stuff you’re hearing from potential employers or you’re talking to agencies and, and sometimes [00:15:00] they’re telling you things that you don’t want to hear as well. So it is quite a roller coaster ride. So certainly I didn’t feel like I was refreshed and recharged, but I was up for the challenge and certainly, when I did have a, an afternoon that didn’t go my way, I did make sure that.

[00:15:13] I stepped away, took some time off then, and then make sure when I got up in the morning, the next day, I was, clear in terms of my thoughts, got straight back in front of the laptop again and actively started doing what I had to do again. So I certainly didn’t dwell on any negativity, but you do have negativity.

[00:15:29] I’m not going to deny that. And it is a roller coaster ride, but you’ve got to make sure that you pick yourself up and focus on the end game and get on with it.

[00:15:37] Marina Pitisano: [00:15:37] So Renaldo, before you reached out to me, what would you say was, what was, what was really frustrating you about the whole job search? I mean, you had been in a job for a long time.

[00:15:51] You know, you made a big decision to leave. You knew you had a lot to offer a new in a new employer. Because I know that when you, the amount of projects you did, the capabilities and skills that you have a really top notch.  But what was frustrating you when you started your job search? What was really annoying you?

[00:16:15] What was getting you, I know you mentioned a few things, but what do you think was the main area that was frustrating you before you came to meet me and you were doing on your own? What was really frustrating you.

[00:16:28]Renaldo: [00:16:28] Well, probably a few things. The [00:16:30] first thing that was frustrating me was the lack of temporary opportunities, I think.

[00:16:34] I think it was the time of the year, certainly over the Christmas, new year period. It’s a very quiet time in finance. And so I was looking to try and pick up a temporary role and get back to work as quickly as possible, from the point of view of just having something to do every day. So I was getting frustrated that those opportunities didn’t exist.

[00:16:49]I was probably getting a bit frustrated with the fact that there was just,  So many permanent roles that were being advertised. And that I was applying for and then just, I wasn’t hearing back nothing at all. So, it’s, it’s very disconcerting when, and when you were applying for a position, you’ve got to customize your, your cover letter.

[00:17:08] You got to customize your CV. It takes, it takes quarter, maybe a couple of days to get the whole application together and then to send it off for a row. And then basically that’s it. You don’t hear anything ever again. I, it does get frustrating cause you’re spending all that time and you’re, you’re getting your head around understanding.

[00:17:25] If I was to work in that particular environment, what it would mean. They’ve mentioned about corner employees, they’ve mentioned where it, where it’s situated. I’ve mentioned the, the team that you’d probably be leading. So you’re starting to get these things going in your head and you’re, you’re trying to understand, can I, can I deal with that?

[00:17:42] And so, and at the same time you’re putting the application together as well. And then when it goes off and then you don’t hear anything. You think, well, it’s all just a waste of time and say it can, it can play tricks with you, but you start to think, well, what’s, what’s the whole point?. And in some jobs you’re, you’re seeing, a really good opportunities and you’re thinking, I really want this position.

[00:18:00] [00:18:00] So you’re really taking the time to, to get your cover letter sorted out and your application and make sure you hit the Mark. And then again, you’re not hearing anything. So again, you’re thinking, well, you know, that you’re competing against maybe 150 200 applicants. So you start to think, well, he’s worth, is it even worth the effort?

[00:18:17] So it is, it is hardest to try and stand outside. These are, these are some of the things that again, lead me to engaging someone like Marina because I felt like I needed to bring somebody in that could give me some insights into the process and some, some real competitive advantage in terms of how I go about it.

[00:18:36] And that again, led me to, to reaching out to Marina.

[00:18:40] Grant Williams: [00:18:40] So what were you working with Marina? Was it a diamond in the rough? Was it I,  and, and, and how, how ready for the, the job search process did you find? Renaldo, because, lucky side it was. Straight out, straight out of one cupboard, and then into another one.

[00:19:04] Marina Pitisano: [00:19:04] I loved working with Renaldo. Because Renaldo is one of those people which you can hear is extremely passionate about what he does. He works for not-for-profit and he throws himself into everything, so he is a TA. He. He is a senior manager. He has really strong values. He really believes in what he does.

[00:19:26] He really provides great, a great [00:19:30] service to the organization as a financial accountant, as a CFO. So he has all that package to offer, but it’s all to do. And this is, what I always incur. This is the sixth this is where I see success is when the actual candidate or the client that I’m working with is really passionate and driven and wants to learn and wants to accept and adopt what needs to be done to achieve success.

[00:19:57] And that is what was really important working with Renaldo. And it was more about, I don’t know what I need to do. I am slightly confused about how I present myself in my resume. How do I present myself in my cover letter? And when I get in front of those individuals, I have a lot to offer, but how do I present myself effectively to be able to get over the line?

[00:20:21] And that’s what’s really good about. Renaldo is that he’s willing to take on any feedback, any improvement, and really drive that to achieve success. So, so for you, Renaldo would, you mentioned that you outsource, when you outsource something, you have expectations that that person or is going to, meet certain requirements.

[00:20:48] So when you thought about using a career coach like me, what were your expectations? What did you expect?

[00:20:57] Renaldo: [00:20:57] Well, I ran out before I expected [00:21:00] anything. But what I, what I was looking for was, was, was some, some extra insights. So the whole reason why, I outsourced or certainly approached Marina is I felt like that.

[00:21:12] A person like Marina is dealing with a lot of, a lot of clients. So a lot of clients who come from all different, industries and different professional backgrounds. So I definitely felt like Marina would have the experience in terms of being able to provide me with, the guidance and the help to make sure that, I can stand out, first of all, in terms of my application.

[00:21:34] Because as I mentioned before, you’re probably applying for a role that is 150 people that are applying for the role as well. So it was all about how I, how I made my application stand out to, first of all, get an interview. But then it was also, again, I was expecting or hoping that Marina could give me.

[00:21:50] The help and the gardens in terms of how I can present myself during an interview to shine and to show the potential employer what it is I can, I can bring to the table. So rather than worrying about stumbling in and having some issues around answering a question that I might not be prepared for, certainly she helped me with understanding how, I think it’s, if you normally goes around.

[00:22:14] What are the most expected questions that will usually come through? And even those questions that you might not be expecting, these are some of the strategies that you can, you can use to actually help answer the question. So it doesn’t actually become about, ticking off the questions in terms of it, in terms of answering [00:22:30] the questions, but around how I can present myself in a way that I am answering the questions, but I’m also answering the questions in a way that’s really bringing what personality out it’s bringing my experience.

[00:22:40] I’m able to really,  A  lawn, white experience and any kind of situations that they’re asking me about and really help with me explaining in the, addressing the question in the best possible way so that when that part of the presentation is over, the potential employee can see a yes, he has the experience and the skills.

[00:23:01] But also this guy, I would think would be a great asset to the organization. He has the personality fit these, he could fit into the culture well. So it was, it really was around here. Could I understand myself better by engaging someone like Marina, to make sure that when I’m in the interview process.  That I’m able to just shine through that particular 30, 40, 50 minutes of interview.

[00:23:23]And also at the same time, help me understand the role better and make sure that I’m doing myself,  the best possible service as well. Because, when you are looking for a role, you start to fall into a position where I’ll just take anything. And I, and a few times I actually went for roles where I was probably overqualified for.

[00:23:40] And, I just wanted to get a role because I just want to look, I didn’t want to be home. I’m still looking for a role. And, but talking to Marina, she made me understand that it’s not about that. You’ve gotta you gotta really understand who you are, what you’re looking for. Step back, take the time, really understand what the position is that you’re looking for in your next role and [00:24:00] go for it rather than, discounting yourself and not maybe believing in yourself.

[00:24:04] It was more around understanding who you are, what you’ve achieved. Really understanding what you’ve achieved and what you can bring to the table and focus on that and then apply for the roles that you think will stretch you. You can bring some value, we’ll help you in terms of your development for the next maybe three to five years.

[00:24:21] So really raising the bar and in certainly I felt the whole time that was with Marina, I had someone sort of, I wasn’t going through the journey alone. I was, I had someone to help me out and whenever I did feel like I was a bit maybe doubtful or uncomfortable or not quite sure, explaining it to someone like Marina and gaining through the process with, with, with her.  I did feel like I had someone watching my back and really helping me with going to the next level and making sure that.

[00:24:49] His role was I was putting myself in the best possible position to it to achieve success.

[00:24:54] Grant Williams: [00:24:54] So, Marina, what, what did you have to do? Was the resume in order was, or, or was it only a matter of, interview prep, preparation and coaching?

[00:25:08] Marina Pitisano: [00:25:08] No, I don’t know. Renaldo,  Renaldo had a great resume, however, it needed to be tweaked for the types of roles that he was going for.

[00:25:15] It needed to have a little bit more definition in the resume, so therefore he could stand out. I think we did a lot of work, and you can tell me Renaldo. We did a lot of work on really expanding his cover letters and making [00:25:30] sure that he’s covered letter, was highlighting the best stories that would really meet the case selection criteria.

[00:25:37] It was really about driving that cover letter and putting in the, the, the criteria that they were looking for. So we were defining what they wanted and defining Renaldo’s stories and making sure they matched a lot better. And also, when it came to the interviews at Renaldo had quite a few interviews.

[00:25:59] It was not only the interview questions that Renaldo needed to deal with. Creating the best scenarios. For those interviews, but he also had to do a presentation, which is what he mentioned at the beginning of the interview, was that he had to put forward a presentation and we worked through that presentation.

[00:26:19] And what I was able to provide for him is some feedback around. The way he should view the presentation. So we were, I was giving him different angles that he needed to think about that he would then enhance his presentation. And that helped him really put forward, a really strong,  proposal and business case.

[00:26:40] When he went in for that presentation, he was, he was quite stretched. And when you are going for these senior roles, you are given either a business presentation, you’re given a case study that you then have to provide back answers. All you have to [00:27:00] present to a case study. So there’s a lot more involved for more senior people on how they need to prepare for those interviews.

[00:27:08] And I’ve had held quite a few clients in making sure that what they’re presenting back, either as a case study or as a presentation. They’re looking at all different, or looking at. From very different angles and making sure we cover all those angles and then achieving success. So that’s what I, that’s how I support it.

[00:27:30] Renaldo through his application and his interview process

[00:27:35] Grant Williams: [00:27:35] Renaldo, was it a non, the nonprofit sector that you were, looking, looking at only or were you really seeking, roles  in the CFO space? A in any industry sector?

[00:27:53]Renaldo: [00:27:53] No, no. I was definitely looking for, I was definitely looking to continue my, my experience in a not for profit sector.

[00:28:01] I’ve worked in not for profit and most of my adult senior life, and I certainly, I said to Marina when we first started working together. I’ve got a lot of experience in that sector. I understand how it works. Not just from a funding point of view, but certainly from a cultural values, in terms of work ethic, all that kind of thing.

[00:28:18] So I definitely wanted to stay in the not for profit space and therefore, and I, and I ended up getting a role in a nonprofit organization. So, yeah, I, I, Marina initially suggested [00:28:30] maybe I open it up to a more commercial environment, But I said to her, no, that was definitely one area that I did. I didn’t feel like I needed to move away from, I knew that from a job fit, a job fit, process.

[00:28:42] And certainly where I wanted to see myself moving forward. I wanted to stay in the not for profit space and therefore I focused all my applications. On roles that were in that area.

[00:28:52] Marina Pitisano: [00:28:52] So grant, when I first start with my client, any client that works with me is we work through what do they want in the market.

[00:29:00] So we go through a journey of understanding, you know, what specifically do they want? I have to narrow that. Down and sometimes it could be a variety of roles or sometimes it won’t be one specific role. That’s really critical to achieving job success.  Because I need to understand the and working with the client.

[00:29:21] They need to understand this is what I’m looking for. In Renaldo’s case, he really wanted the CFO or senior finance manager in a not-for-profit. He came from that background. He loved that background and wanted to pursue a career in that background. So that is a piece of work that we first do with our clients, is understand very clearly what are they looking for, because that then drives the whole job search process.

[00:29:48] Job search process to its entirety because at least we know where we’re going, where we’re heading, and what and how do we tailor the tools to achieve that success.

[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Grant Williams: [00:30:00] Renaldo, leaving at Christmas time, that that sets a be a real challenge. As you say, people industry sort of shuts down in it a lot of cases for.

[00:30:13] Sort of the four weeks of, of January, and then I would have thought it was going to be even more difficult if you’re limiting yourself, to, to the sector where you obviously have had the skills and, and a real feel for. So is this is really to you, Marina, is some, is the not, not for profit sector at that.

[00:30:38] Level, hiring often. Are there a lot of that?

[00:30:44] Marina Pitisano: [00:30:44] Well, we’re now there will know Rinaldo is in the industry. So do you feel not for profit is hiring a lot of people.

[00:30:52] Renaldo: [00:30:52] Well, yes and no. Certainly. the last couple of organizations I’ve worked for over the last five years, I’ve gone through transformation periods.

[00:31:01] So certainly not for profit is going through a process where, and, and again, talking to a lot of agencies while I was looking for a new role and this, this came up a lot. a lot of these not for profit organizations have had staff working there for a long time. They’ve got old legacy software systems.

[00:31:17] They’ve got maybe six,  up to 10 15 different lines of business that are all programs that are running inside. They’ve been sort of working off these old processes and systems for a long time. So a lot [00:31:30] of them over the last, or from what my experience had in the last five years in particular, is they’re all going through transformation there.

[00:31:36] They’re upgrading their software systems, in particular, their CMS. They’re trying to get people in that have got more of a, certainly a commercial understanding, in terms of their background or how they can bring more value into an organization and try and take advantage of their particular strengths.

[00:31:51] As well. So, so a lot of not for profits are going through transformation and therefore they are hiring and looking to get, a better credentialed people into the organization from, from the point of trying to bring in something a bit different, into the organization. So, and that’s where I feel like, that’s why I wanted to stay in the not for profit space because I have done some quite a bit of work in that transformation process.

[00:32:15] I did feel like whatever profit I can go into. Because of the experience I had, I’d be able to bring in some different insights and maybe some, some, some change that would probably help with the buffer profit in terms of growing and transforming. But in terms of, taking on staff, look, some at, some are going through that process and they are, and some, some aren’t.

[00:32:36] But from the point of view of, of leaving a role at Christmas time and then try to find a new role there, it probably wasn’t a great time of the year to do that. But sometimes you just gotta do it. Sometimes you just have to do what you gotta do and you gotta take the risk. And, I gotta get off your bum and really take the, the, the challenge in an endeavor to try and find what it is you’re looking for that.

[00:32:54] Cause if I hadn’t done that, the role that I’m doing now, which is an awesome role, I, I wouldn’t have found it. [00:33:00] So, and I wouldn’t have met, I wouldn’t have met Marina as well. So yeah, you’ve got to, you’ve got to take those risks at times and just go for it.

[00:33:08]Grant Williams: [00:33:08] Renaldo,  what, what did you have to change, about yourself?. And what surprised you most about the, the process of, of going for a new week, a new position.

[00:33:26]Renaldo: [00:33:26] look, I don’t know if I changed much about myself. But what I think I did was you have to take the time to know who you are. I did, I did,  I saw another lady as well that helped me do a, an analysis of my, my values. So, and that’s how, I was able to find Marina because whilst I did this psychiatric, assessment of my values and my, my behavior, that was just a one soft test and that was not going to really well.

[00:33:54] So it’s going to make me more self-aware. It wasn’t gonna really help me with the job search process.  And that  and that’s how I came to form Marina. But, but that process there was able to give me some information about how I communicate, how I behave, more of my emotional intelligence and things like that.

[00:34:09] So I was able to understand, a lot more about how I am as a, as a professional and how I need to operate to make sure that I’m giving white team the best possible opportunity. But also, when I’m reporting and working for an organization, how I can bring, myself or the best, best version of myself to the table as well.

[00:34:28] So, and these were some of the things I [00:34:30] started to talk to Marina about it, about more communication style about my, my values, about how I, I like to work with my team or, or work for a CEO and working for a CEO in particular. So again, Marina and I had a lot of discussion about.  What, what my values were and how I needed to behave at time is when, when things were coming up about things that were either a challenge or, or whether there was a robust conversation about something that I believed in or was in contradiction to the leadership team.  About how we handle different scenarios and the, and what I should be doing.

[00:35:00] And then she’d come back and give me feedback about what she thought. And throughout that process then I was able to understand better. About how we should go about it. And that I think helped me develop my presentation skills and helped me develop, certainly during interviews. How I could bring myself to present my values and what skills in the best possible light.

[00:35:22] So certainly it was more, the whole process made me understand. Yes, it’s just how I need to go about it.

[00:35:29] Marina Pitisano: [00:35:29] So grant, I’m fortunate enough to be accredited in the advanced, in a metrics tool that Rinaldo is talking about. So him being able to present that to me around and that tool measures, values.

[00:35:45] So what does he value? It also measures how he communicates and behaves, and also personal attributes. So I was able to use that tool, especially from a values perspective. So what does he value and how did [00:36:00] that compare to the organization that he was going for?. We were able to match that and also bring that up either in the cover letter.

[00:36:08] Or also in the interview. So that really enhances, the growth and the progress of job search. So, in many times, when I’m working with clients, we might start from doing some form of assessment, either the inner metrics tool or I use what’s called the strength inventory, or a Birkman, these tools give us insight to what

[00:36:33] they the attributes, the values, the key characteristics, their strengths, and we utilize that information in driving the driving, what jobs they might be able to go for or learning a little bit about themselves. So becoming more aware so that they can use that awareness in the job search. But Renaldo, what I was going to ask you is that,

[00:36:57] in COVID 19 I’m spending a lot of time talking to different individuals and we’re talking about investing in one’s career. So, I know that you’re also a people leader of people. So what would be your perspective on, should people invest in their career?.  It’s been interesting that people, what we say to people is that if you want to become better at sport, you’re hire a coach.

[00:37:29] If you [00:37:30] want to learn how to do something better, you go out and get coached or trained. But there doesn’t seem to be the same wheel or the same keenness to invest in one’s career. So what would be your perspective on that now having invested in yourself and in your career?. What would you say to those people that are sitting on the fence on whether or not a career coach.

[00:37:57] Could help them or support them through managing, managing, or changing their career. What would be your perspective on that?.

[00:38:07] Renaldo: [00:38:07] Well, my perspective would be to find a career coach,

[00:38:11] Marina Pitisano: [00:38:11] but why? Why is that important?

[00:38:14] Renaldo: [00:38:14] I think you hit the nail on the head. We’re going through a period now where. A lot of people have been made unemployed due to the fact that because of the COVID 19 restrictions in, in retail and hospitality and things like that.

[00:38:26] My attitude growing up, and certainly in my early years of working. I went out and got my, I got my degree. I went out and got my CPA, professional status. I went out and did an MBA. I kept up my, my educational and training to make sure that my skills and my value, and certainly me as an individual, from a professional point of view, that I always have, the ability to be quite marketable if I was looking for a role.

[00:38:56] And certainly, but, but at the same time, [00:39:00] I did that without, in previous times I did that without the help of a career coach. What working with Marina in particular taught me over the last or over that month or two that I was working with her, is that you need someone who can give you some open, honest feedback that is not in conflict in terms of what you do, when, when you’re, when you’re working.

[00:39:19]Over the last, I’ve got a lot of experience over the last 15 years in particular. I’ve seen organizations have different ways of going about. Performing, managing performance of their, of their leaders and, and, and things of that nature. And some organizations have a meeting once a month and they have open and honest conversations.

[00:39:36] Some organizations have a meeting once a year. And so to whiten and get positive feedback or some kind of feedback about your performance once or twice a year, it just isn’t enough. And when you’re working at a, at a, a leader or in a leadership role, or when you’re working for the management team of an organization.

[00:39:54] You gotta make sure that you’re bringing as much value to the table as possible. Otherwise you do run the risk of that.  Someone else will come up at the top of you and take your role. So my advice is if you are a professional that’s looking to make sure that you’re, you’ve got the skills, you’ve got the value, you’re always bringing that competitive edge to the table.

[00:40:13] I think by having a career coach, you’ve got someone there who isn’t at the risk of, doing something that’s in harms way, an organization. So when you’re working, for example, for an organization, if your CEO says something to you that you don’t want to hear, you might get put off. You might feel a bit, a bit unhappy about what he’s told you.

[00:40:29] You [00:40:30] might not feel great about the whole, the whole story,. But, when you’re talking to someone like Marina career coach, go paying them for some professional guidance and professional advice, and they’re going to tell you the truth. At times, they’ll tell you it’s something that you don’t want to really hear or that you don’t really want it, but obviously she did it in a way that was very constructive.

[00:40:47] But I do think it helps to have someone who’s. Coming from a position where they’re, they’re very objective, they have nothing to lose, and they’re telling you, look, you need to improve in this area there, or you didn’t do that. That wasn’t done very well. You could probably improve in that area. There  I can help you do that.

[00:41:03]There’s some things that you should maybe focus on. These are your key strengths, so why don’t we do some more work in those areas there. So I think having someone watching your back and really with nothing to lose and really just everything to gain. I think it’s a, and certainly I’ve already spoken to Marina.

[00:41:19] Now that I’ve secured a role and I’ve been there for the last two or three months. I’m looking to keep using someone like Marina who’s got the experience and, and really, advance my standing and certainly make sure that I can keep. Using what I know, and certainly learning more skills as well and put those in the best possible light.

[00:41:36] So that moving forward, again, I’m constantly evolving as a probational instantly and certainly in a position where, I’m bringing quite a strength and resolve to my position for my employer and making sure that, again, I’m leading and doing the best possible service to the organization that I’ve worked for.

[00:41:56] Grant Williams: [00:41:56] So Renaldo,  just so we clear up. For [00:42:00] people who, who have been listening. You mentioned a five year period, but you, you, you just mentioned then that, you’ve been in a role for a couple of months, so it’s, so this is a really, new, situation for you and that, and the Christmas that we’re talking about, is the one just gone, is that right?

[00:42:21] Yes. Correct. Yep. Okay. Sorry,

[00:42:26] Marina Pitisano: [00:42:26] go on.

[00:42:28] Grant Williams: [00:42:28] Just gonna ask, did you have to deliver any hard truths?

[00:42:32]Marina Pitisano: [00:42:32] no, no, no, no, no. I think what Renaldo is saying is that, what we’re now they’re saying is that when we worked together, it was more about, in this case, I’ll use this word, which I don’t really like, is we had to pivot a little bit around.

[00:42:51] How he had to approach the he’s job search.  And also what he had to package to make sure that he was selling himself correctly. So it was more about giving him constructive advice on. Okay, Renaldo when we got to answer this question, what, what scenario are we going to use? And he would say, Marina, I’ve got the right scenario.

[00:43:18] And I’d say. No, we don’t. We don’t have the right scenario. We need to consider another scenario. You’d be looking at me and thinking, what do you mean we don’t have the right scenario? Now that doesn’t actually answer the question. That doesn’t [00:43:30] actually enhance, that doesn’t actually highlight your skill or your capability.

[00:43:34] It’s actually quite light on for this senior position. We need something a little bit more strategic or more directional. And so that’s when he started to think even deeper about his answers and come up with more. More and more, a better answer or a better example that was going to showcase it. In some cases, what happens is that individuals that go to intern to go, they go to an interview is sometimes they showcase the wrong example, or this, or the example they’ve chosen is quite minimal in demonstrating their skill and capability.

[00:44:08] So if you don’t showcase the right one, you’re got so sometimes my client will turn around and say, well. I don’t have that example, or I really liked by example, I’d say, no, we don’t want that example. We need something deeper. And it was, and Renaldo is very receptive to feedback, as you’ve heard. It’s got, he’s had an assessment.

[00:44:28] He’s happy to take that feedback on. And at times he had to dig really deep for bond. And once he did pull up, James. Which then he was really proud to demonstrate and show when he would go to the, sometimes we just don’t have the chance to think deeper enough. We come up with examples, but they’re not the right ones.

[00:44:49] You need time to think about those and when you have someone that’s giving you that push or that that let’s consider something different, or you give someone a different angle. Which is what we [00:45:00] as coaches do. All of a sudden you’re coming up with more bitter examples, deeper experiences, and showcasing your capabilities a lot better.

[00:45:11] Grant Williams: [00:45:11] Renaldo,  apart from a new position, what did you take away from the process?

[00:45:18] Marina Pitisano: [00:45:18] And he did get a new positioning, by the way,

[00:45:23] Renaldo: [00:45:23] I think what I took away from the process was that. I had so many things inside me that, that I was aware of. Actually unaware of her having someone like Marina really, really feed, with, with more discussion about particular topics and in particular, these are questions that would come up during the interview and when we looked at applications and the, and the, and the cover letter and things like that.

[00:45:46] Well having someone like Marina, she was helping me dig for those gems. She mentioned the gems before. So there’s a lot of gems when you’ve been working for a long time, there’s a lot of experience that’s sitting in your, at the back of your mind, and sometimes you put together your CV or your cover letter, and you really haven’t brought all these stories to the surface.

[00:46:04] So by having someone like Marina asking and probing more. He started digging a bit deeper and understand more about what it is that you’ve done in the past and really learn about your communication style, your leadership style. When there’s been times of conflict, how you’ve handled that, how you’ve been able to bring more values of all that, all those things that go on during an interview and what you’re trying to show your employer.

[00:46:25]She was able to help me pull those things out and certainly, raised those [00:46:30] stories and bring those stories to the force. So that’s where I’ve felt. In terms of the whole process, I was able to just understand myself better. And whenever there was a question, I started to, to, to ask more questions of myself to get the best possible answer.

[00:46:45] Grant Williams: [00:46:45] So Renaldo,  you would, you would repeat the process, again. If you were looking to take another step in the career?.

[00:46:58] Renaldo: [00:46:58] I would definitely repeat the process, but I’m actually looking for  Marina to become a, a career coach for mania going forward permanently. Like we’re going to have a chat later on today about how we can put something in play where I can continue to use her.

[00:47:11] I can continue to give her scenarios about what’s happening at work and what the decisions have taken. And maybe what are you back I can get from her. I mentioned before about performance management and, and getting feedback from your employees in the past. A lot of organizations don’t, I don’t feel have these things.

[00:47:28] None of them in a way. It’s giving their employees the best, the best feedback going forward. So from my point of view, I’m thinking, well, or having someone like Marina on the sid.  Who, who I can go to, who’s working in an objective way, I can ask her things, I can look for her feedback and see where she is, what she thinks and helped me develop my leadership style,. Helped me develop my, my, my values, my, my skills, my experience, the way kind of thing going forward.

[00:47:55] Grant Williams: [00:47:55] So I don’t have to pump up your tires at all today. Marina

[00:48:01] [00:48:00] Marina Pitisano: [00:48:01] pop up my town. But the only thing either how you always say to me. So Marina gave me the final tip of the day.

[00:48:08] Grant Williams: [00:48:08] I was just about to get there.

[00:48:10]Marina Pitisano: [00:48:10] I  love that about you, Grant. The tip of today, and I’m really pleased, that Renaldo has, you know, I’m very privileged and honored that Renaldo has said that, and I, I am going to continue to work with him.

[00:48:25] And I think the biggest,  take away from today’s podcast is go out and invest in your career. It’s worth while spending, whatever it, whatever little money there, whatever money there is, whateve, investment there is to really spend some time in career because it is what we do for most of our lives. Our job in many ways becomes our identity and when we lose that identity, you really need to start to think about how will I, well, what help can I get to help me.

[00:49:08] Drive a really good career choice or a great career. So I really urge people that when they got to these crossroads. If they’re being made redundant, if they’ve lost their job, if they changing their job, or if they’ve decided to leave their job and they’re right in the moment of job search, [00:49:30] that they get support and don’t do it on your own because you can see through these podcasts at the,

[00:49:37] Individuals that have had some support. It doesn’t have to be from me. But the people that have had support have been able to achieve great, have been able to achieve their success in Career . And that’s what this is all about, is getting people to get help, get support, and achieve what they want to achieve in career.

[00:49:57] So that’s it for me.

[00:49:59] Grant Williams: [00:49:59] Would that be your top tip to Renaldo

[00:50:02]Renaldo: [00:50:02] yeah,

[00:50:02] I concur therapy. That’s exactly what it is. But the key message is you need to find someone to support and help you throughout the process. They’ll know things that you just aren’t aware of and they’ll just help you first of all, know yourself fairly in terms of what you’re trying to achieve in the job search process.

[00:50:19] But even just having someone there when you’re, when you are looking for a new role, and if you did, and if you do what I did, which was leave a job and you’re by yourself and yeah. You don’t have anything to go to. Having someone there that you can talk to, bounce things, in terms of getting their feedback and what they think as well.

[00:50:37] Even just that point of view of just that emotional support as well. I think, having someone there to help you throughout the whole process is invaluable.

[00:50:45] Grant Williams: [00:50:45] Well, you mentioned that term fade back. Thanks, Renaldo. It’s given me a, a very good, lading. If you want to give Marina and awesome feedback.

[00:50:57] That’s pretty easy to do. If you’re listening [00:51:00] on Apple podcasts, you can go and leave a review on Apple podcasts. You just click on the on on the page for our podcast and then follow the link Label review. You can do that on Google podcasts and another really easy, easy place to do it is pod chaser, and that’s podcaster.com

[00:51:22]Had to get that little plug in there Renaldo . Thanks,  thanks so much for joining us. It’s, it’s hopefully the difficult thing, I think for people when they’re in a specialized field. And getting near the top of their tray. and you as a CFO, definitely getting to the top of the tray. And, you know, you’ve pursued an MBA after you, CPI accounting qualifications.

[00:51:48] So, there’s, unless you want to go into general managerial, you know, becoming basically the, the, the CAO, It’s, it’s difficult to decide to make that, that step.  You, there, there just aren’t many places to step up to are there. So I reckon good on you. Good on you for doing it. Good on you for investing in yourself.

[00:52:16] And taking the, the, the, the good self advice to get some help. That’s good. That would be my top tip. Even if you don’t reach out to Marina, make sure you find somebody [00:52:30] who can help you with the building blocks to get the resume right, the presentation right. hopefully we’ve covered with the experts series.

[00:52:39] How to come across, look fantastic on video, deal with any of those confidence issues that you might have. Just get on with it. Be positive and do something. Marina, you’re always at, let’s create your career podcast, and that’s, letzcreate.com.au let’s with a Zed.

[00:53:07] Marina Pitisano: [00:53:07] That’s right. Thanks. Well, thanks Grant.

[00:53:10] Grant Williams: [00:53:10] Thanks for bringing renown. I won. Thanks again  Renaldo

[00:53:13] thanks everyone for listening and thank you, Marina on grant Williams, and I’m out of here,

[00:53:23] so I’m going.

[00:53:28] Marina Pitisano: [00:53:28] Okay Renaldo, we got to check out of here and I’ll give you a call.

[00:53:33]Renaldo: [00:53:33] No

[00:53:33] worries at all. Thanks for Marina.

[00:53:35] Marina Pitisano: [00:53:35] Bye.


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